Ex-offenders: Reintegration

Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, I agree with the noble Lord’s point, which is why my right honourable friend Shabana Mahmood made the announcement yesterday in which the Government committed to building three new prisons. Those had been announced by the previous Government, but yesterday money was committed to expedite those prisons. It is not because we want to fill those prisons up; it is because prisons need to be run at less than 100% capacity to enable all the rehabilitative activities that can be undertaken in prison to operate to reduce the chances of reoffending. So I agree with the point which the noble Lord made.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the right reverend Prelate on raising this issue, which is immensely important, much neglected and central to Christian teaching—an innovation from those Benches. I also congratulate the Government on appointing a Minister who has direct expertise in and commitment to this subject as Prisons Minister. I have looked back and I cannot find any occasion when this House or its committees have produced a study of training, rehabilitation and support for prisoners. Would the Minister welcome such a report, should your Lordships’ House decide to ask one of its committees to look into the issue?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, I would welcome that. There have been numerous attempts to try to tie up the elements of what happens to prisoners as they leave prison. In the previous Government, there was a Through the Gate initiative, which tried to do the same thing. The current Government are trying to overcome this problem. It is very difficult; it is a resource-intensive thing to co-ordinate all the services to try to reduce the reoffending of prisoners. But it is worth pointing out that, when one looks at averages, there has been a slight reduction in the amount of reoffending over the last 20 years or so, which is encouraging. Nevertheless, it is a substantial problem and, although it is not for me to say, if the House were to want to look at this matter, I would welcome that.

Humanist Weddings

Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Monday 3rd February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. The Government are indeed looking at comprehensive reform. There are many anomalies within our current marriage law and a number of disadvantaged groups. We believe that we need to take our time on this matter to get the answer right, so I thank the noble Lord for his question.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

Can the Minister explain to those of us who do not know what either of them are like the difference between a registry office wedding and humanist wedding?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I can answer that for the noble Lord, Lord Lilley. A registry office wedding is legally binding in the eyes of the law in England and Wales. A humanist wedding which is not conducted in a registry office would not be legally binding in that sense. A humanist getting married in England or Wales would essentially have to go through a two-stage process to be married in the eyes of the law in England and Wales.

European Convention on Human Rights: 75th Anniversary

Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I am happy to agree with what my noble friend said. I want to mention one other name, that of my former honourable friend Terry Davis MP, who has died, and whose funeral is at the end of this month. He was Secretary-General of the Council of Europe between 2004 and 2009.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the anniversary would be a good opportunity to dispel the myths just promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that this was a purely British or Conservative invention, and to recall that the Attlee Government reluctantly agreed to sign the ECHR only on the basis that the court would not have jurisdiction in the UK as British citizens would not be allowed to take cases to it? It was a policy continued a few months later by Winston Churchill, when he came into power. Both were presciently advised of the risk to which the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, recently pointed: that it was inconceivable that any Government would take the risk of entrusting to an international court legislative powers that Parliament would never entrust to the courts of this country.