Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Lord Lennie Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Johnson of Lainston) (Con)]

My Lords, it is with deep regret that the UK Government have been unable to secure legislative consent for this Bill from the Scottish Parliament and the Senedd. We have also not been able to secure a legislative consent Motion from the Northern Ireland Assembly, given the lack of a functioning Executive. This is disappointing, given that the same approach was followed in the Trade Act 2021, for which the Scottish and Welsh Governments did recommend consent.

The Government have sought to agree compromises with the devolved Administrations. However, despite the best efforts of officials and Ministers, we have not been able to reach an agreement with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. I remind noble Lords again that during the passage of the Bill and the deals it implements, the Government have undertaken extensive engagement with the devolved Administrations, including ministerial meetings, official-level meetings and meetings of ministerial fora, and there were 25 chief negotiator calls with the DAs regarding the Australia free trade agreement alone. In addition, as I have made clear in each debate on the Bill, I reaffirm the UK Government’s commitment to consult the devolved Administrations before exercising the concurrent power in the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for taking through the Bill, which is a first for both the Minister and the country—our first trade deal signed following our exit from the European Union. The Minister’s enthusiasm for the Bill was always evident throughout its passage. We now have a trade arrangement with Australia and New Zealand. We will wait to see the overall and specific effects, particularly upon our agriculture sector. While the overall impact is predicted to be very limited, a factor caused by the huge distance between Australia and New Zealand and the UK, there were some specific concerns about certain Australian farming methods and the effect on small hill farmers in the UK. I suspect that these account largely for the failure to get agreement from the Scottish and Welsh Governments.

My thanks go again to the Minister and his team of advisers for their openness and, on this side, to Milton Brown, who again has shown good judgment in facilitating the progress of the Bill.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Lord Lennie Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Lennie]

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 15, at end insert—
“(3A) Regulations under subsection (1) may not be made before completion of a review by the Trade and Agriculture Commission of the potential impact of the procurement Chapters on industry in the United Kingdom.”Member’s explanatory statement
Requires a review by the TAC before regulations implementing the procurement Chapters can be made.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I have two amendments in this group, Amendments 1 and 6. I was thinking that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, would be here, but maybe the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, will cover for him in his absence—he may arrive while I am speaking, who knows?

I begin by thanking the Minister both for being available between Committee and Report and for facilitating a meeting with Mr Phil Goff, the New Zealand high commissioner in the UK earlier in the Bill’s passage; both were very helpful indeed. Amendment 1 would require a review by the Trade and Agriculture Commission, the TAC, before regulations implementing the procurement chapters can be made. The TAC, as we know, is the independent committee of expert specialists in a number of fields—animal and plant health; animal welfare; environmental standards and so on. Its role is to scrutinise a new free trade agreement once it is signed and to inform Parliament whether measures in the new free trade agreement are consistent with UK levels of statutory protection. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, has arrived.

Last year, the then Secretary of State for International Trade, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, received confirmation that the Australia and New Zealand trade deals were indeed within that consistency, so one might wonder why we are putting down this amendment. It is not to score political points, or to attack the Government, but to ask TAC to consider the procurement chapters of these two free trade agreements. The TAC would need to be fine-tuned to do this by importing necessary expertise. In Committee in the other place, representatives of TAC agreed that it is only as strong or as weak as the parliamentary scrutiny process around it. We can see no reason to limit it to the agricultural aspects of agreements and not to extend TAC to look at procurement as well. Incidentally, it is regrettable that TAC’s role is limited to post the signing of deals, but that is not the concern of this amendment.

Amendment 6 would require an impact assessment of regulations made under Schedule 1 within 12 months, and every three years thereafter. These trade deals are not short-term, one-off deals: while predictions can be made in advance, they are generally vague or broad and wide of the mark, so impact assessments would consider what the actual situation is after time has passed, to better inform the future, and on a rolling basis. This would provide insight into the effect of these deals and help us learn lessons for the future. Whether the Government like it or not—I think they do not like it—these agreements set precedents for future trade deals. A number of concerns have been raised about these deals and it would be sensible to keep them under formal review and readjust expectations as we gain more knowledge. For example, on employment rights, the TUC has commented that the agreements do not contain commitments to ILO core conventions, and an obligation for both parties to ratify and respect those agreements.

On climate change, it is deeply concerning that vital commitments made to this House on climate change in regard to the Australian deal are not being upheld. Alok Sharma MP, COP 26 president, said on 1 December 2021, that the Australia deal

“reaffirms both parties’ commitments to upholding our obligations under the Paris agreement, including limiting global warming to 1.5°.”—[Official Report, Commons, 1/12/21; col. 903]

This final agreement does not uphold that important commitment. In other areas too—the NHS, small businesses, regions and particularly animal welfare, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, will speak about in a minute—there are further problems. So, an impact assessment set against these concerns would be very helpful to assess the deals and prepare the UK for future negotiations. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, and I shall speak to Amendment 3 in my name. I congratulate my noble friend the Minister for the close interest he has taken in listening to my concerns—most recently in a phone call on Sunday evening. I apologise for intruding on his weekend.

My concerns in the background, and my reason for tabling Amendment 3 at this stage, are twofold. One, as the noble Lord opposite alluded to, is the need for an impact assessment, particularly looking at the impact of implementing the procurement chapters of these free trade agreements with Australia and New Zealand. What will the impact be on farmers, and indeed on the market for food within the United Kingdom, particularly in relation to lamb and beef? Secondly, in relation to the impact on the market for food, the impact assessment I am calling for must consider the production and food safety standards.

I am trying to impress upon my noble friend and the Government the plight of upland hill farmers, many of whom are tenanted farmers. I am most familiar with those based in North Yorkshire, where I had the honour to represent two different constituencies for a total of 18 years; I grew up in the Pennines in County Durham. Peculiar to those areas of the north of England is that perhaps 50% of the farms are tenanted. They also have very poor land but it does lend itself to grazing, and over the years they have done this extremely well. Therefore, they have thrived through our membership of the European Union and, most recently, the Basic Payment Scheme, through spring lambs and fat-store cattle.

I was particularly concerned to see in an article dated 5 March that it is estimated that in this financial year alone, the typical grazing livestock farm in the English uplands faces a drop in farm business net profit income of almost two thirds, to approximately £16,300. I would like to pay tribute to the work of Julia Aglionby, professor of practice at the University of Cumbria’s Centre for National Parks and Protected Areas. She predicts that the income will recover slightly to almost £23,000 over two years, before slumping back to £16,700. The ballpark figure is going to be between £16,300 and £16,700.

On that basis, the NFU fears that it is not going to be cost effective, as we move from the Basic Payment Scheme to payments for environmental and public goods, for farmers to farm in the uplands, certainly in the north of England, with which I am most familiar. So, they face a drop in farm income. Coupled with that is what I see as unfair competition and the lack of a level playing field. My noble friend Lord Inglewood will remember from our days in the European Parliament this elusive level playing field that we thought we would obtain at some stage in the European Union; it never happened, but I see it becoming more and more elusive as we go forward.

So, the purpose of this amendment is to look at how we can ensure, through proposed new subsection (2) of Amendment 3, that our standards of food production and safety will be met going forward. The NFU is concerned that there are no enduring safeguard mechanisms —that the mechanisms in place are for up to a maximum of 15 years.

I would like my noble friend the Minister to acknowledge when he sums up that, in its impact assessments for the two agreements, the Department for Business and Trade has modelled agriculture, forestry, fishing and semi-processed foods, which include the beef and sheep meat sectors, and these are estimated to see a fall of 0.35% in one agreement, and a minus 1.16% reduction in gross value added, respectively, relative to the base line, over the long run as a result of the FTA. We have to accept that some farmers will take the view that we are doing a deal with the devil.

Australia and New Zealand are very good producers of food. They have large tracts of land on which to produce their food, and they are going to come after our markets very aggressively. Regarding my noble friend’s department’s impact assessment, I accept there may be other areas under these agreements that may benefit, such as automobiles and whisky—which is close to my heart, coming as I do from Scotland—but I am here to argue for the plight of the hill farmer and the upland farmer, who are feeling very beleaguered as we speak.

Another source of concern that I hope my noble friend will address is how these imports are going to meet my test under proposed new subsection (2) in Amendment 3. I have had a note from the Food Standards Agency concerning the percentage of food coming into the UK from third countries, including EU countries, as “checked at port or point of entry”. As we will recall, imports from the EU, which may include Brazilian, Australian and New Zealand imports, have been temporarily suspended at our borders; I think they are due to be phased in toward the end of this year. But imports from Australia and New Zealand through the EU are not being checked at our borders at the moment.

What is concerning me more is that all imported high-risk food and feed from non-EU countries is subject to control at our borders. This includes 100% documentary checks to ensure that the consignment originates from both a country and establishments that are approved to export to this country, and food and feed safety assurances contained with the Export Health Certificate have been correctly completed, meeting our safety requirements. Additional identity and physical checks will be carried out, and the frequency of such checks vary between—if the figures are correct—1% and 30%.

The FSA says that typically, meat and dairy products fall into the 30% frequency, while fish and fish products fall into the 15% frequency, and highly refined products of animal origin fall into the 1% frequency. Lamb and beef fall within the 30% checks, so we are taking an awful lot on trust at our borders from non-EU countries —an example being Australian and New Zealand meat imports—under the terms of a free trade agreement.

The final thought I would like to leave my noble friend with is that the checks undertaken by local authorities in England are a sort of last-chance saloon; at the moment they are patchy, and I hope that enough resources will be made available to them. Those are my main concerns. This is yet another agreement which is asymmetrical in nature, and we are doing a deal which is going to be far more in the interests of Australian and New Zealand farmers than our own. Unlike other free trade agreements, it does not allow for a safeguard measure, so it is putting our own producers of meat, particularly lamb and beef, at risk. It also lays us open, both as domestic producers and consumers, to substandard foods coming in.

Those are the concerns that lie behind Amendment 3, and I very much look forward to hearing some reassurance from my noble friend when he comes to respond.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I have appreciated my noble friend’s extremely positive interventions and applaud wholeheartedly his phrase, “Let’s get on with it.” He has also been extremely helpful in pointing out the specifics of the Bill and the difficulty of attaching these sorts of amendments to it, although I am very sympathetic to the overall philosophy of the desire for proper impact assessments, which we have had and agree to wholeheartedly in terms of the two-year and the five-year monitoring report. I stress again that this treaty does not create a precedent. However, it does create a model. I am very impressed and support wholeheartedly the flexibility of this agreement because it will allow us and allow noble Lords to call Ministers to account on a constant and rolling basis concerning the effectiveness of these trade treaties.

I believe that I have covered most of the points raised. I am very happy to continue a dialogue around these and any other measures that may not have been covered on this important piece of legislation. We believe, and I believe passionately, that this trade Bill is a good thing for this country. It will be of huge benefit to our citizens and our consumers. It will give us enormous additional security and allow us to have a closer relationship with two nations that have been, since their founding, sister nations of this country.

I am continually being asked by the representatives of Australia and New Zealand when this treaty will come into force because, as soon as it does, and only then, their businesses and citizens, and ours, will be able to take advantage of it. I call on this House to support the Government in this mission. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, to withdraw his amendment, and for the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, not to move theirs.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

The TAC covering procurement seems to be a future possibility, and I welcome the Minister’s comments on it. On the questions of food standards and quality assurance that noble Lords have raised, we will wait and see. We will have a review in two years and a conclusion to that in five years, and we will find out whether the assurances that we seek on food standards have been maintained. I do not think that there is any doubt about this being a gateway agreement: it is clearly to do with the CPTPP. The impact assessment that we are calling for is a one-off. This is the first time that we have negotiated a trade deal for some 45 years. To make sure that we have covered all the bases and got things right, we thought that a review—rather more frequently than the five years offered—would have been better. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 2, in my name, is a minor and technical amendment that has been tabled by the Government to correct a typographical error in the Bill and clarify the power available to Ministers of the Crown or a devolved Administration under Clause 1. I am very grateful for noble Lords’ scrutiny, which was instrumental in highlighting this typographical error in the Bill. In particular, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who is not in his usual place, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh, for highlighting this issue in Committee. If I may say so, their laser focus on detail in the Bill shows the real value of your Lordships’ House in ensuring that legislation is as robust and clear as possible. The Government are very grateful to noble Lords for highlighting this issue. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

There is nothing to say; we agree.

Amendment 2 agreed.

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Moved by

[Lord Lennie]

7: Clause 4, page 3, line 4, at end insert—
“(2A) This Act expires at the end of the period of two years beginning with the day on which it is passed.”Member's explanatory statement
Adds a sunset Clause to the legislation.

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[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I rise briefly to speak to Amendments 7 and 8 in this group. These two amendments would sunset the ability to make amendments to two years after the law passes or the UK’s accession to the CPTPP. Incidentally, the Government previously said that accession would happen last year, but, as I am sure we are aware, it has not yet taken place.

The Explanatory Notes to these deals state that each party to the free trade agreement should ensure that its domestic legislative framework is consistent with the obligations in the FTA. The UK-Australia and UK-New Zealand free trade agreements require changes to domestic procurement law. Therefore, why not have sunset powers in the legislation? Is there any expectation that achieving this intention would take more than two years, and are there concerns that constant updates would be required for whatever reason? If so, would it be right to do so for more than two years in any event? If accession to the CPTPP will change our trade relationship with Australia and New Zealand, will a domestic legislative framework need to be updated in a manner not possible within the powers in the Bill so that it is aligned with the CPTPP and these deals if they are to coexist? A series of trade experts have commented that the UK will be a rule-taker, not a rule-maker, when we join the CPTPP. The Minister may perhaps wish to comment on this interplay between the Australia and New Zealand trade deals and the CPTPP. I beg to move.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, I turn to Amendment 8 specifically, which seeks for the Bill to lapse when the UK joins the CPTPP. Bilateral free trade agreements, such as these signed with Australia and New Zealand, do not lapse due to membership of plurilateral agreements such as the CPTPP and the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement. They exist alongside each other—that is important to note—with the UK having separate and continuing commitments under each. This is already the case with the numerous bilateral trade agreements that the UK has with members of the GPA, such as Canada, Switzerland, the Republic of Korea, the EU and Ukraine, to name a few.

I emphasise that the procurement chapters of the Australia and New Zealand agreements will not be superseded by the UK’s accession to the CPTPP. Accordingly, the power in the Bill will still be needed when the UK has acceded to the CPTPP, to implement future modifications to the Australia and New Zealand agreements. In light of this, I ask for the amendment to be withdrawn.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 7 withdrawn.

National Minimum Wage (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Lord Lennie Excerpts

Monday 6th March 2023 Grand Committee

By just debating and passing these increases in minimum wage without going into detail about what could be done, we are not really dealing with many of the other problems affecting employment. Can we perhaps have a more comprehensive report?

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My thanks are due to the Minister for setting out the upratings on the national minimum wage, the living wage and associated allowances, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for setting out his views on how things should improve in future. These changes are welcomed by the Opposition. Not surprisingly, it was us who set up the national minimum wage in 1999. We had a minimum wage, below which earnings must not fall, in the teeth of fierce opposition from the then Conservative Opposition Benches. I am glad that that situation has now been ameliorated, and they now support the minimum wage; all converts are welcome.

I think the number of jobs covered in all these figures is 2.9 million. The number affected by the national minimum wage is approximately 1.5 million, which compares with 700,000 at the time of its introduction. Does the Minister have any explanation for this increase in the numbers covered by the national minimum wage? Retail, hospitality and cleaning and maintenance are overrepresented in the minimum wage sector, and women are approximately two-thirds of those currently on the national minimum wage. Some explanation for that would be helpful.

The Labour Party would ensure that the national minimum wage was a real living wage. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked how to do so. We would do it by changing the Low Pay Commission’s remit so that, in addition to other factors, it reflected the need for working people’s pay to at least cover the cost of living. The national living wage would finally live up to its name. We would ensure that the national minimum wage applied to every adult worker and was properly enforced. It is unfair to pay adult workers below the national minimum wage, and by adult worker we mean everyone aged 18—the age at which you are treated as an adult in the UK—or over.

Many employers already pay the national minimum wage, and that is to be commended, but compliance is a big and continuing problem. Can the Minister tell us how many prosecutions or enforcements took place last year for failure to pay the national minimum wage? We welcome these upratings, as I have said, and look forward to having the opportunity to progress this legislation further by extending the protection that the national minimum wage provides for all adult workers sometime in the near future.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their valuable contributions in today’s debate. I particularly appreciated the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, about my responses on the OQ earlier. I like to think that we will have a slightly more mature exchange over this issue than we experienced then—but such is the nature of the important scrutiny of the parliamentary system.

If noble Lords do not mind, I will go through and try to answer some of the points raised by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked about the relationship between the October date and the bringing into practice date of 1 April. In normal periods, that would be a perfectly reasonable time lag; in fact, it is relatively fast for Governments to move with only a six-month or so period. I am very sensitive to the fact that we live in an inflationary environment, and inflation is taken into account by the Low Pay Commission. A number of factors are taken into account, as noble Lords may imagine. It would be difficult to make sudden changes, however, given the fact that we need to make sure that employers have a suitable timeframe to bring into practice the pay increases. Although the public sector is also paying the minimum wage and the national living wage, we must not forget that it is on the whole employers who are paying these additional wages, and we should be thankful to them for the support of this overall concept.

Given that this is appraised every year, I hope we will still be in a position to make sure that these wages reflect our ambition, which is to make them represent two-thirds of median earnings. In preparation for this debate, I did some work with the officials from the department, who can bear witness to this. I wanted to see where we were in relation to other European countries on median earnings and absolute amounts, given the currency fluctuations. It is not my place to celebrate or feel triumphant about minimum wage levels, because we want people on maximum wage levels—but it is important to see where we stand, so at least we can benchmark. We compare very strongly. If you look at where we are on the European averages, you can see that we are one of the highest, out of the whole of Europe, and we compare extremely favourably with countries such as Germany.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, made a very good point, and I have thought about the philosophy of minimum wages, which were brought in in 1999 by a Labour Government and not supported by the Conservative Opposition at the time. I personally was unsure of what the effects would be on business; I was concerned that it would drive up costs for business and cause a negative or opposite effect to giving people security—that it would lead to greater insecurity and lower levels of employment. Actually, it has made sure that people are guaranteed a level of income, and it is an extremely powerful way for us to manage our economy. I am very pleased that we have converted—and, like all converts, we have probably ended up being more passionate about the cause than the original proponent. We have introduced the national living wage, which is a very effective way to ensure that the overall pay rates are raised.

On the noble Lord’s comment about the age at which these rates should apply—in other words, that the national minimum wage and the national living wage should be synchronous—I have some sympathy. At the same time, it has been believed, and I think there is evidence, that an element of flexibility for 18 to 22 year-olds, or those in their early 20s, is necessary, particularly as that is where there is greater vulnerability for employment volatility. We have plans for the pay scales of those over the age of 21 to eventually come into line with the national living wage, but we would still be keen to retain some flexibility for employees below that level.

This is all about making sure that the employment market functions properly and that we can employ as many people as possible at the right rates. This is certainly a matter for debate—we are trying to ensure, not that people are paid less, but that there is flexibility in the market so that new workers in the workforce can get the jobs they need.

It is important to cover the noble Lord’s point about there now being 1.5 million, from 700,000 when this came into practice. I am happy to do some more analysis of that, but my surface suspicion is that there are 3.75 million new people in the workforce since 2010. It would be interesting to see an analysis of what those jobs are. I would like to inquire into this, as I appreciate that the noble Lord has raised a very relevant point. In some respects, I would like to think that it is a good thing that we have people coming into the workforce, but clearly we do not want to see a derogation of wages. We want to see people being paid more. I stress that these are minimum-wage levels—they are not the set wage levels—to ensure that no one is paid less than that rate.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, mentioned issues around fixed-hours contracts and the flexible economy. We are doing an awful lot in that area to make sure that people have an element of certainty. He was generous enough to remember my response to the Oral Question earlier today. There is quite a long list of different types of specific protections that we are bringing in. I draw his attention to the Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Bill, which effectively allows employees to demand flexible working from day one, rather than week 26, and to the Workers (Predictable Terms and Conditions) Bill, which is probably more relevant to what he was talking about. It gives more strength to employees’ requirements for predictability in terms of numbers of hours if they are on temporary work contracts. Once you have worked for an employer on a part-time basis for a certain length of time, you will be given a greater opportunity to ask for predictability in how you are paid and your hours.

We have to strike a balance—and I think we do—in giving employers flexibility, which is at the core of what has been an incredibly dynamic and successful labour market over the last 20 years or longer, and making sure that workers feel protected. Importantly, flexible working hours are very much appreciated by a number of workers who want flexibility. It would be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of zero-hours contracts or highly flexible working. People appreciate them, as they give a great deal of flexibility. A lot of students and part-time workers who could not do full-time work and would not want predictable work will use these contracts. They constitute about 3% of the workforce. There are mechanisms and there is analysis of how we can improve the rights of workers, but we do not want to dilute the flexibility that these structures give to our workforce and economy.

The question from the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, about the factors that the Low Pay Commission takes into account is well made. It takes a great number of factors into account when assessing pay. I believe that the Government have accepted all the recommendations of the Low Pay Commission; this is a very important partnership that we have. My assumption is that the factors in decision-making are continually reviewed, which is absolutely right. Ultimately, our ambition is to ensure that the national living wage effectively reaches two-thirds of median earnings by next year. I am very pleased to say that we are on track to achieve that. As a nation and a society—let alone a sense of triumph for the Government; this is about people’s hard work and being rewarded properly—it would be a great thing if the United Kingdom could achieve that, and we are on track and very close to doing so.

I believe I have covered all the issues, except for the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, on tips. I am afraid I do not recall seeing the noble Lord in his usual place on Friday for the debate on tips. The legislation is very specific and will be brought to bear specifically so that all tips go to the workforce, with no deductions, not even for credit card charges. I hope that is clear, because that is the whole purpose. They will be paid monthly, so they cannot be accumulated, and, importantly, they cannot be used as so-called “pay bonuses” or “top-ups”.

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I conclude by extending my thanks once again to the Low Pay Commission. Thanks to its independent and expert advice, we can ensure that the right balance is struck between the needs of workers, affordability for business and the wider impact on the economy. We look forward to receiving its recommendations for the 2024 rates, which will be published later this year.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, could he comment—or write to me if he cannot—on enforcement actions in the past 12 months? What are the numbers and so on?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Lennie. I try to answer all the questions, but there is always one that I miss. Enforcement is very important and all businesses are responsible for paying the correct minimum wage to their staff. HMRC follows up on every worker complaint it receives, even those that are anonymous. This includes complaints made to the ACAS helpline. In 2021-22, HMRC identified pay arrears in excess of £16.3 million for more than 120,000 workers. I am very happy to go through this now, but it might be more useful to write to the noble Lord if he is happy with that.

I will address one point that has been raised. To some extent I am embarrassed by it, but not embarrassed to be open and transparent about it. The question was why the listing of companies that have not paid their staff the minimum wage had not happened. The list is supposed to be published every quarter. I am afraid that there has been some turnover of Ministers. I spoke to the Minister responsible today and he is determined to make sure that it happens in the very near future. I cannot give a specific time, but we are very aware of it. We want to make sure these companies are named; it is a powerful incentive for employers to behave properly. We are entirely of one mind here and I will be delighted to put the information in the House of Lords Library relating to enforcement. The good news is that I can reassure the Committee that HMRC in particular has been focusing on tackling wilful non-compliance and that significant progress has been made.