Criminal Justice Reform

Debate between Lord Lemos and Lord Clarke of Nottingham

Tuesday 8th September 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lemos (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for those observations. I disagree only with the comment about the ill-informed public narrative. There is a need for us to better explain to the public what we are doing and why we are doing it, particularly, as I have said, the intensive community supervision that we are talking about in the second phase of the progression model. The Government are still committed to the progression model; it is in the legislation, and we will take it forward. I absolutely accept the challenge that we need to do better at communicating with the public.

[Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)]

My Lords, I was Justice Secretary when we abolished IPPs in 2012. Nobody in Parliament then would have believed that, 14 years later, we would still have 2,000 people being held in prison indefinitely without release. It is not the case that they had all been sentenced because they were dangerous; IPPs were beginning to be used by many courts as a routine sentence for comparatively minor criminal offences. If those 2,000 people had been given the normal determinate sentences that we now have, every one of them would have been released some time ago without further process.

It is quite certain that, when the 2,000 are released, several of them will commit quite serious offences and come back before the court. Then, of course, there will be outrage led by campaigners and, understandably, by victims and so on. There is a danger that, to guard against that, the Government will legislate for all kinds of constraints on the release of the IPP prisoners, and I fear that, in a few years’ time, we will find that 1,000 or so are still in prison on indeterminate time. Of course, the Government have to look at legislation, but will the Minister try to ensure that it is not based on ultra caution and trying to avoid some future turmoil, and that it is mainly based on the belief that all these people should be free and only in exceptional circumstances should those that are an obvious danger to the public be kept in custody?

[Lord Lemos (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the work that the noble Lord, Lord Clarke, did as Justice Secretary, particularly in relation to young offenders. On the specific point about IPP, I take his warning very seriously. This will be a very heated debate, and I shall appreciate the support of all noble Lords in taking this forward in the way the noble Lord, Lord Clarke, suggested. The Government do not want to be risk averse, nor guided by ill-informed public opinion, but we want to take victims into account, as I am sure the noble Lord understands. However, his warnings will be ringing in my ears as this goes forward.