Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Debate between Lord Leigh of Hurley and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a helpful discussion. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, for tabling his amendment, and I was very glad to be able to add my name on behalf of these Benches. There seem to be two parts to this case. One is that this simply will not work. The other is that universities are not public bodies and that this in some way is another penny on the scale towards making them public bodies, which is something I think that any us who are in any way involved in universities would seek to resist at every opportunity. I should declare my interest as chancellor of the University of Teesside.

When you have two Tory former Universities Ministers and the Government’s anti-Semitism adviser saying in the strongest terms that they fundamentally disagree with this legislation’s approach to this issue and support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, it is a wise Minister who reflects on that and perhaps takes it away and considers it a little bit further.

I can see why, when the Government conceived this Bill, they included universities because, as the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, quite rightly reminded us, there is a problem on some campuses for Jewish students and Jewish members of staff, and the atmosphere has deteriorated since October 7, in particular. There should be nobody in this Committee or anywhere else who dismisses that and thinks that there is no problem that we ought to set our minds to try to resolve because it is not right that in the name of free speech or anything else we allow that to continue. That must be tackled. My point to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, is that the calls that he mentioned, such as about the naming of lecture theatres and the awarding of scholarships to Palestinian students, are made by those doing the protests, the sit-ins and all the other activities that he talked about. He mentioned Goldsmiths specifically. I have a copy of the agreement that was reached between the senior management team at Goldsmiths and the students’ organisation that I think is called Goldsmiths for Palestine. It is seven items long. Many things have been discussed, but only one section looks in any way at investment, divestment or boycotts. The rest are things that would never be within the scope of the Bill.

I am afraid that when the noble Lord, Lord Mann, says that the Bill will not do anything about these protests, he is probably right. I have not spent a lot of my life sitting on protests or going on marches, but I have done a bit, and the fact that what you are asking for, or demanding, is unlikely to happen—or is perhaps even legally impossible—at the point at which you are making the demand does nothing to stop you making it. That is the way protest works—we can like it or not; it is just a fact of life.

Many of the demands being made are nothing to do with BDS any more. BDS has been around for a very long time, as we all know, but taking away universities’ ability to succumb to these campaigns—not that any of them have—will do nothing to improve safety on campuses; it could make things worse. The noble Lord, Lord Leigh, is shaking his head. I hope that he will recognise that I am being genuine about this; I want to see this resolved as much as he does. However, I do not think that telling protesters that we are preventing universities taking the decision they wish them to take will mean that they stop making their demands, or that the temperature goes down. Protesters feel that they are right and are acting in the interests of humanity. We can agree or disagree on how they do that and the language and methods they use. We can have a discussion about that, and perhaps we should, but the Bill will not improve the situation. As the noble Lord, Lord Mann, and others have said, there is a risk that it could make it worse. I do not want us to take another step down a path that could end up making this worse when there is still an opportunity to work together and find an alternative means of making improvements that we all wish to see.

I do not think that the theory that the Government have put forward—that if you remove a university’s ability to adopt BDS, the protests somehow diminish, and that life becomes more tolerable and safer—is realistic. That is my main reason for wanting universities to be removed from the Bill.

I also support the arguments made by the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Johnson, about the independence of universities; they are very important. Our universities are feeling somewhat beleaguered and got at by this Government. There does not seem to be a lot of understanding or support, and they would argue that many of the challenges they are now facing have been made worse by the actions of this Government and the attitude that they seem to take towards universities—wanting to plant them front and centre of a culture war. Our universities are wonderful institutions. They bring huge investment into our country. I am sure that we are all immensely proud of them. They employ a great number of people. They bring jobs and prosperity to parts of the country that desperately need them. They are inspiring and educating the next generation of engineers, pharmacists and doctors, and we thank them for all that they do.

I say to the Minister that to go further down this path, without pause, would be a mistake. A far better approach to tackling this problem, which we all accept needs to be addressed, is to work alongside universities —my party would be part of this if that would be helpful—to work out the most effective way of dealing with this. The Bill will not work, and there is a risk that it could make the situation worse for Jewish students.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

I heard what the noble Baroness said very clearly, but does she agree that Goldsmiths has now agreed to take on a policy of BDS, and that if the Bill had passed, it would not have been able to succumb to intimidatory pressure so to do?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have the agreement that Goldsmiths made in front of me, and the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, is right. One of the six issues concerns BDS, but I suggest that he read the wording very carefully. It says that the senior management team will raise concerns with the college’s ethical investment fund manager; it is not saying that it will enact any divestment at this stage. I read the agreement very carefully, not least because I thought that it may have made a decision that undermined my case this evening. I would be very happy to meet with the noble Lord and discuss this further, because it leaves the door open, perhaps, to Goldsmiths taking the decisions that he fears it might. It does not look as if it has done so far, but even if it does not and were prevented from even discussing that, there would still be the other six elements that were driving the campaigns, the sit-ins and the activities on campus which were so problematic.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Leigh of Hurley and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

My Lords, I want to comment on Motion B, which no one has addressed. I congratulate the Minister, her colleagues, the Bill team and all the Peers who have contributed to this 337-page whopper of a Bill, which has been broadly welcomed by all. I remind your Lordships of my declaration of interests, which includes the fact that I am an employee of an FCA-regulated business that is currently seeking to merge with another FCA-regulated business.

That takes me to Amendment 10. Within the Bill are the important amendments to Sections 1B and 1E of FSMA 2000. Amendment 10 seeks to add subsection (2)(ca) to the already strong provisions for consumer protection in Section 1C(2)(a) to (h). I agree with my noble friend the Minister that we should not push through Amendment 10.

I can tell my noble friend the Minister and fellow Peers that in the market the Bill is desperately sought. There is still huge frustration at the FCA about the time taken to progress and execute transactions. That has been a significant block on economic growth, which is one of the objectives that the FCA will now have. I ask the Minister to ensure that the FCA is aware of its new objectives and requirements and that this actually takes place in practice.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we on these Benches supported all three of the amendments that we are discussing today when we looked at them last time, including Amendment 7, which would expand the regulatory principle on net-zero emissions to include conservation and nature. We also voted for Amendment 36, imposing a duty on those conducting regulated activity to conduct due diligence with the aim of preventing illegal deforestation.

We have listened carefully to what the Minister has said and will be listening to what she says in response to this debate, particularly to the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. However, I thank the Minister for her openness in engaging with these issues and for the amendments in lieu, which demonstrate an agreement with your Lordships that these are issues that the Government need to address urgently. They may not be doing so in a way that we would have preferred today, but it is right that we acknowledge the moves that the Government have made.

Amendment 10 in my name would require the FCA to take financial inclusion into account when advancing its consumer protection objective of securing an appropriate degree of protection for consumers. The Government disagree with that amendment, saying they consider that the FCA is already able to tackle issues of financial inclusion within its remit. We argue that the problem is that the Government have failed to address our key concern in tabling the amendment, which is about the poverty premium—that is, the extra costs that poorer people pay for essential services such as insurance, loans or credit cards.

We see this Bill as something of a missed opportunity to build a strong future for our financial services and rethink financial resilience, including how some of the wider well-being issues are tackled by the regulator in the future. Everybody should be able to access the financial services they need, regardless of their income or circumstances. Although we do not intend to push this to another vote today, I can assure noble Lords that we will be returning to this subject at every opportunity—especially if that opportunity arrives in the form of a Labour Government.

For now, I place on the record our sincere thanks, particularly to the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Boycott, who have been highly effective in raising nature and deforestation issues. I also thank my noble friends Lord Livermore and Lord Tunnicliffe for their work on this Bill. We are probably at the end of it now. I note what the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, said about the need to get this Bill through and on to the statute books for the benefit of this important sector.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Leigh of Hurley and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is helpful, thank you. What kind of measures do we anticipate, and what would be their impact? It is all very well to play hardball and say, “This is what we will do”, but that will always have a consequence and we need to understand what that might be. Not to do so would be deeply irresponsible.

Then there is the issue of powers. A lot has been said and I agree with pretty much all of it. Clause 12(3), which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, referred to, says

“may, by regulations, make any provision which the Minister considers appropriate in connection with any provision of the … Protocol to which this section relates.”

That is incredibly broad and we ask whether it is necessary for it to be so broad. If I have understood the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, correctly, he seeks to put some sort of frame around it. We are all very concerned about where those powers might lead us.

The problem is that we have to look at this in conjunction with the Subsidy Control Act, which is itself very broad, has powers for Ministers and lacks clarity about what the UK Government intend for Great Britain’s subsidy regime. We are compounding one unknown with another. That is quite a lot for noble Lords to swallow. We have been asked to show a lot of faith in Ministers when really what we need, and what the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, has signalled he would like too, is some more information and draft regulations. We want to know where we are going with all this so that we can assess whether it will be the right approach to benefit businesses in Northern Ireland and answer the challenge made by the DUP. At the moment, I can see a set of circumstances in which it would not.

It is right that these issues are resolvable only by negotiation; we all know that. We have to start accepting that and asking ourselves whether the Bill’s approach will assist those negotiations in reaching a positive outcome. My noble friend Lady Ritchie said that this is something where we want the voice of the Northern Ireland Assembly. We want to know what MLAs from all communities have to say. It really matters that we hear from all sides, because this is about solving problems, not making things worse. The Bill really does risk making things worse.

The only other thing I would add is that there is now a different subsidy control regime in Great Britain, but where are this interventionist Conservative Government, who are making use of their new powers up and down the country? Speaking as somebody from the north-east of England, we see lots of tinkering and plenty of things that we could have done whether we were in or outside the EU. I do not particularly see that there will be the massive difference that warrants the kind of tension this is leading to. I suggest that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and my own are designed to be helpful. These are issues that we will not make progress on through this Bill.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that I was trying to create a framework, in a very amateurish way that is way above my normal pay grade. I take her point that she is trying to do the same thing with her Amendment 18, which is sensible, but does she think removing Clause 12 would weaken or strengthen our hand in the negotiations? If a vote on the clause standing part was to take place, what would be her plans for those people planning EIS investments in the future?