Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I suspect that I got one because I have an amendment down in the group on check-off—I do not know. These procedural points arise, and I suspect that the problem of reaching beyond the public sector is one that really cannot be looked at without any crossover, with regard to facilities. On the other hand, it would be much better to have the debate on check-off on Thursday; then we can all have time to think about the jigsaw between them.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendment 82B, in my name. I am following the general trend of the comments here that this is really a debate around the drafting implications of what is in the Bill and in the correspondence that has been circulated. I want to do that in relation to my amendment with respect to the arts and cultural sector, because considerable concern is being expressed in those bodies about how the Bill would bite.

I came thinking that I would speak in terms of what I did not want to see in the Bill, and I was rather taken by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, that the Bill is rather short of detail compared to where he thought it ought to be in terms of regulatory power.

I fundamentally disagree with him, but I know what he is trying to say. I think we are both saying the same thing, which is that whether it is here or in secondary legislation, this drafting does not work. If its unintended consequences are going to include bodies which by any stretch of the imagination should not be included, clearly we hope that there will be some consideration between now and later stages of the Bill.

My amendment is specifically about art and cultural bodies. I have already said that I am puzzled by why it is necessary to have any powers in the Bill that apply to them. This information could be obtained quite easily using existing powers in legislation because all the bodies that we are talking about presumably receive funds—in the case of arts and culture, largely from DCMS. Therefore, as the Minister is in DCMS she is in a very strong position to suggest that the next time the grant-in-aid letters are issued, they include a phrase which simply says, “Please will you also let us have by return the quantity of time spent by your trade union officials on facility work?”. I received similar letters in my capacity as director of BFI when I was serving there, and I know exactly how easy it is for Ministers to do that with a slip of the pen. I do not quite see the point of having to do it through cumbersome primary legislation or even extensive secondary legislation. It seems to me and to others who have spoken in this debate that these clauses are otiose—simply a rather crude grandstanding game.

I put it to the Minister that, as she must know from her role as a patron of the arts, an attender of many functions and from talking to the management—she often tweets about how she is going around the country enjoying our cultural splendours—that these bodies do not operate a classical management operation. I am not in any sense intending to be sceptical but the nature of cultural management is not the same as it might be at a major supermarket chain. We are talking about collaborative bodies working together for entertainment and professional productions which are not going to be subject to quite the same arrangements. Of course there will be health and safety and educational work by trade union officials, but the actual nature of the operations are very different across the theatres, galleries, museums and creative sector that we all want to support. In that sense, I wonder whether the Minister could find some time to meet us to talk about this sector because I know she shares an interest in it. I think there could be ways in which we could reach an accommodation on the matter she wants to see made more transparent. I do not think it is necessary to do it in the Bill. If she would agree to such a meeting I would be very grateful.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 13th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I think the word that my noble friend Lord Whitty could not quite conjure up, because it is not often used in this House, is hypocrisy, and it has to do with red tape. My noble friend Lord Monks reminded us that, not only because of Christmas and the new year but also because of the pause, we are between Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill, and now are dealing with Part 3. It is all rather confusing. There is overkill of all these lists of people who have some sort of role. We mentioned the electoral roll and how 80% might be up to date. I think that 50% would be a very good score for a candidate examined on this set-up even when it has been a year in use. It is quite remarkable. I will not go through the whole list.

It reminds us of the point made by a number of colleagues at Second Reading to do with the famous impact assessment and the enormous costs falling on the trade unions and many other people as well, which requires some justification. In particular, some justification is required of a Government whose raison d’être seems at some times to be to cut out red tape. If this is not red tape, what is it? The Government are clearly are going to be obstinate and will stick to their guns, whether the bowling is fast bowling, a googly or whatever else. We know that they have been taken over by dogma on everything to do with industrial relations.

Finally, I have here the report about which my noble friend Lord Monks and I have had a conversation. We asked people in the international departments of European countries to tell us, in answer to a questionnaire, what goes on in these successful democratic countries on these sorts of questions. No one remotely has a top-heavy superstructure such as this. I have little doubt that the only reason why a Labour Government might not repeal this on day one is that they would have very much bigger fish to fry, no doubt, in some respects.

I have little doubt that the life of this legislation will be very short, which is the only saving grace I can think of to mention in support of my noble friend Lord Whitty on this amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, it is interesting that the questions we are left with keep coming back and keep being unanswered. What is the serious public policy issue behind this proposal? What exactly is the problem? What will this Bill achieve that current legislation does not achieve? Will the measures being proposed do more than simply increase the regulatory burdens on trade unions? We have all those questions and very few answers.

We know that union membership is already regulated by the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act. Section 24(1) puts a duty on unions to maintain an up-to-date register of members’ names and addresses so far as reasonably practicable. This legislation has stood the test of time since the days of Mrs Thatcher. As has been said already, we are not aware of any calls having been made to the Government to extend this provision. BIS, the certification officer and ACAS have confirmed under freedom of information requests that they have received no representations for such a measure.

As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, it may be that a better self-certification system could be an advantage. I say “it may be” because we do not know what the problem is but cloaking the issue in some spurious idea that there is some public concern out there that would be remedied by having an additional checking arrangement is simply not sufficient.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I turn to two amendments which seek to drastically reduce the effect and extent of the provisions as drafted. This would in practice undermine the Government’s key policy objective, which is to introduce a proportionate and effective reporting and enforcement mechanism alongside the existing duty of unions to maintain an up-to-date membership register so far as is reasonably practicable.

Amendment 29 would remove Clause 37 and the role of the independent assurer from the Bill altogether. Clause 37 gives credibility to the assurance process by requiring independent scrutiny, which is in line with the Government’s overarching aim to provide greater assurance of the maintenance of trade union membership registers for the benefit of members, employers and, importantly, the wider public. As some unions become large organisations representing members across a variety of employers and workplaces, their administrative requirements become more complex. As a consequence of the prevalence of very large unions in recent years, there is also now an increased public perception of a union’s scope of influence.

This may be an appropriate moment for me to restate what I said in Committee: I am not minded to comment on the media coverage of particular industrial disputes, such as the Grangemouth refinery or, more recently, the issue affecting Howdens. Instead, as I should, I will focus on the separate issue at hand relating to the obligation of unions to maintain up-to-date membership registers. Perhaps this can also be described as playing a straight bat. I hope so.

The nature of union membership data means that they decay easily—for example, addresses can quickly become out of date. About 2 million people move in and out of union membership every year, which equates to around one in four union members. The register for a union which has a 25% turnover in membership could theoretically be entirely out of date in four years. Unions are already required by statute to maintain a register of the names and addresses of their members. What we are introducing is annual reporting on the compliance of unions with this duty where currently there is none. I believe—

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara

Monday 11th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Perhaps I may mention in this connection the comment of the Royal College of Nursing—a union that is not normally associated with industrial difficulties. However, it states:

“Both the Government appointed Certification Officer and the Government approved Assurer would have powers to access unions’ membership records. In addition, the bill also proposes that any third party would be able to lodge a complaint about union membership—there is a potential for this to be abused during periods of industrial dispute. A complaint would be considered by investigators who would, in turn, also have access to union membership records. These proposals pose a serious risk to confidentiality of trade union membership and place undue bureaucratic and costly burdens on trade unions”.

I thought that it would be good to place on the record that comment from the Royal College of Nursing.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this group of amendments is different from the others we have considered this evening because it does not contain a clause stand part. The reason for that is because we think, certainly in relation to the ones in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Monks, that they are sensible safeguards and measures that we would recommend to the Government as being appropriate and proportionate in relation to the aims set out for the Bill. I gather from the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Whitty, and to a certain extent from those made by my noble friend Lord Lea that they shared this approach. So we are not, in this mode, trying to be as aggressive—as it could perhaps be considered—in relation to the Bill as we were in Clauses 36 and 37.

That does not remove from our side the feeling that these provisions are still aimed in the wrong direction, and that they lack a sensible underpinning in terms of public policy and have not been properly consulted on. However, in relation to the generality of the proposals, there is a case for the Government to move a little way towards us. I suggest that even if they cannot accept every one of the points made in this group, they might consider taking them back and reconsidering them. That would certainly give us a little more confidence that they were taking us seriously in these debates rather than simply retreating into the rather partisan approach that has been evident so far.

The underlying concerns that have been mentioned by noble Lords about blacklisting are important. It was perhaps unfortunate that my noble friend Lord Whitty referred to my noble friend Lord McAvoy as a solid citizen because that would in no sense reflect on his ability to do the work that he was no doubt being considered for before he was unfortunately blacklisted. I jest of course—I think. The point is well made. This is not something that is happening over there and far away. This is happening to real people in real time and it is affecting lives and blighting careers. Its cause is largely due to the circulation of lists, and therefore, by following back that logic, it is something that we are very concerned about. Everyone should be concerned about that and we should do everything in our power to make sure that datasets of the type that could cause solid citizens to be affected are protected in a way that allows them to be kept as close as possible to what is required and necessary so that they are not in any sense open to the risks mentioned during this debate.

We do not have any particular issues that make one point more than another, but it is important to recognise that for many years this country has been proud of its effective and well working relationships between unions and employers. We want to see them continue. As I have said, it is an important part of the contribution that can be made by industry and also by those working on the services side towards economic growth. While we object to the measure before us in general terms, we think it could be strengthened if it has to be turned into law, and these amendments are therefore recommended.