Ukraine Update

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I cannot remember whether it was mentioned in the Statement or in my response to the noble Baroness, but when the Prime Minister was in Munich he made it clear that, if we were asked for further contributions to NATO, we would provide them. We have been working very closely with NATO allies in this area and within the broader region, and we are absolutely committed to defending and supporting Ukraine; we certainly will be playing our part.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, will the Minister tell us what she thinks are the pros and cons of maintaining a stance of ambiguity on Ukrainian membership of NATO?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

It is obviously up to Ukraine whether it wishes to apply to join NATO. Under NATO’s open-door policy, all European democracies are entitled to pursue membership; the decision over whether to seek membership is for the people of Ukraine.

European Council

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 24th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that, as I said, there was no substantive discussion of Iran at the Council but it was indeed raised in discussions at the margins. However, I am sure he is aware that over the weekend my right honourable friend the Minister for the Middle East went to Tehran and met senior Iranian government representatives there. That visit was an opportunity for further engagement about our long-standing concerns over Iran’s destabilising activity. In those conversations he reiterated our assessment that Iran almost certainly bears responsibility for the recent attack on tankers in the Gulf of Oman and stressed that such activity needs to stop to allow for an immediate de-escalation of rising tensions. He also discussed the nuclear deal and reiterated our support for that, as well as raising our concerns over the continued imprisonment of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. So while discussions did not happen at the Council, as the noble Lord points out, I assure him that we took the lead in having discussions in Tehran over the weekend.

The noble Lord is absolutely right that without a withdrawal agreement, as the EU has said, there can be no implementation period.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Leader’s remarkable agreement with the support expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for the EU five-year strategy document sounds to me like the sort of thing people on this side used to say. Could she send a copy of this to both candidates to make sure that sensible questions can be asked at the hustings about the future of the European Union and our relationship with it, based on this document?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord will know that the Council’s conclusions are available for all to read. I am sure everyone interested will do so.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We certainly want a positive and fruitful relationship with the European Union going forward. That is why we are working towards this deal. That is why we believe that this deal is the best way to deliver a smooth and orderly Brexit and ensure that we have a strong relationship with the EU and all its citizens in the future.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, in point 8, about future relationships, we have the very interesting statement that the Government are proposing that,

“the new Brexit deal will set out in law that the House of Commons will approve the UK’s objectives for the negotiations”.

Does the noble Baroness the Leader of the House not recall that this was exactly the proposal carried by this House? Some of us were very pleased to know that this would be enabling the House of Commons to have a vehicle for reaching consensus. At that time, a year ago, it was denounced as being totally unconstitutional and against the conventions of the history of Parliament in this country.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am glad the noble Lord at least agrees with one element of the withdrawal Bill, and I look forward to his support on the rest of it.

European Council

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, the European Council says in its conclusions—I have a copy in front of me—that it,

“expects the United Kingdom to indicate a way forward”,

before 12 April 2019. This cannot simply mean that there is a contradiction with the sentence that follows, which says:

“The European Council reiterates that there can be no re-opening of the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed … in November 2018”.


Therefore, can the Minister confirm that the European Council would be ready to look at an alternative set of proposals that could be put forward by this Parliament?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is right that there are two elements to the extension that has been agreed. If the deal is passed this week, there will be an extension to 22 May to get the legislation through. If the deal is not passed this week, the extension is to 12 April, at which point we will either leave with no deal, because that remains the legal default even post the SI, or a plan will be put forward for alternative arrangements. Those are the two options that we have in front of us, which is why we are hoping to be able to bring the vote forward again.

EU Council

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I understand that the Electoral Commission has recently published figures showing that the referendum in 2016 cost around £150 million or £160 million. If that is incorrect then I will write to my noble friend, but I think those are the figures that were published. We are not considering a second referendum. We are working to ensure that this deal is passed by the House of Commons.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, much has been made of the need to get the right sequencing into all this. People have generally agreed that it has to be sequenced in a proper way. In order that we do not run out of road, can the noble Baroness the Leader confirm that the current government thinking is that, now that we know the meaningful vote is not until the middle of January, nevertheless there will be time for Parliament to use its good offices to look at how far different options can add value to the way in which the body politic goes forward before other ideas are considered in this very tight timetable, unless we extend the period?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I reiterate that the meaningful vote will be held in the week of 14 January. Obviously we are looking towards winning that vote. As I have also set out, if the House of Commons rejects the deal then there is a process set out in legislation but, as the Statement said, if the deal goes through then we are looking at ways in which we can engage Parliament further in future as we move into the political relationship.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 26th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

Does the noble Baroness agree that, on this occasion, and very unusually, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, misspoke? The question I think he posed was: given that we will leave the European Union, this is the best deal and there is no alternative. But that is patently not the case. Whatever the merits of EFTA or the European Union moving from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2, the option is available and has been well covered in many recent pamphlets.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

An EEA-type agreement is not comprehensive and would not cover issues such as customs, external and internal security, the CAP, the CFP or Euratom. It would leave significant gaps in our wider relationship with the EU. This is a deal that covers all those areas.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

The Minister lays great stress on what might be summarised as “There is no alternative”—a phrase that we have heard somewhere before. This slogan is patently inaccurate. I know that the Minister would like it to be the case, but is she not obliged to consider alternatives as they are presented?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister, supported by the Cabinet, has brought forward this deal, which has been negotiated with the EU, and it is the deal on the table. There will be a Council meeting later this month for both parties to agree it, and it will then be put to Parliament, which will, I hope, support it.

European Council

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I suggest that we want to be looking forward, not backwards, and that is what this Government are doing.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

Will the Minister tell us her understanding of the difference between a White Paper and a Green Paper? If the document that comes out next weekend looks, of necessity, like a Green Paper, will the understanding then be that there will be a national conversation about the various trade-offs—what we are actually looking at at the moment are different packages of trade-offs—between the different ways of handling our future relationships?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have set out, the White Paper will be a comprehensive document detailing the entire breadth of our future relationship, and we expect and ask the EU member states to consider the proposals seriously. We both need to show flexibility to build our relationship. This will be a detailed paper about our view of our future partnership with the EU and we look forward to discussing it with it over the summer.

European Council

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said, this offer is made in the spirit of our future partnership and depends on a broader agreement being reached.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Leader confirm that our aspiration is to continue to have the sort of relationship we have with the European Council on all these interesting questions, such as on Russia and all the other things in the Statement? Does not continuing to have such a relationship depend on being part of a club that has rules? How does the Leader visualise squaring that circle in our future relationship?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think we will continue to have strong relationships because it is in all our interests. We work with our EU partners, with NATO and through the UN: we are involved in a whole array of international organisations. Other issues were discussed at the Council that have not yet been raised—our approach to Turkey and Afrin and issues around Cyprus, for example. We work with all our international partners in a whole range of areas. We bring a lot to the party, so do they, and we want to continue to do that. I see no reason why we cannot.

United Kingdom-European Union Future Economic Partnership

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend is absolutely right that we want to enter into the next phase of negotiations in a positive and productive manner and believe that that is the same for both sides. Of course, our future partnership will need to be tailored to the needs of our economy, and this follows the approach that the EU has taken in the past. The EU’s agreement with South Korea, for instance, contains provisions to recognise each other’s approvals for new car models, whereas the agreement with Canada does not. The EU’s agreement with Canada contains provisions to recognise each other’s testing on machinery, while the agreement with South Korea does not. So it is possible to develop relationships that work for both sides, and that is exactly what we intend to do.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

If I may echo the Leader of the Opposition, this is a movement towards realism. However, is this Statement not really on two rather inconsistent themes? On the positive side, the calculus is, on page 4:

“What matters is that our rights and obligations are held in balance”.


That is an excellent idea of a calculus. But in the same Statement, on page 2, it makes the unqualified statement,

“we will not accept the … obligations of Norway”.

So how is this calculus going to be carried out, and with what degree of transparency? How do we know that the rights and obligations of Norway are incommensurate with what we need as a country? How is this calculation going to be carried out? It could be argued that, in the case I have mentioned, it is perfectly possible to show that the calculus could be positive. Could the Leader of the House enlighten us as to how these obligations and rights, advantages and disadvantages, are going to be balanced out in public?

Brexit Negotiations

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I agree with my noble friend. As I say, we hope very much that the Council will agree sufficient progress on Friday so that we can move on to what we all want to do: talk about our future relationship. It is important for us to agree those terms now. As we have made clear, we are starting from a unique position of full regulatory alignment and we want to maintain our current high standards. This is a good basis for a constructive, deep and special future trading partnership.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Leader accept that this Statement is still facing both ways? In saying that we are not going to stay in the single market, it is trying to put a sticking plaster over a rabbit hole which is not there. Given the deal that we struck in good faith with the Irish Republic whereby all parts of the United Kingdom will be in the same position, it is essential to stay within the single market. No trade deal, such as that referred to by the noble Lord, Lord King, can alter that fact.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

No, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. As we have made clear, the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, will leave the EU customs union and the single market, and nothing in the agreement alters that fundamental fact. I would have thought that noble Lords would be pleased that we have made progress, have reached the end of phase 1, have come to an agreement together and are looking to move forward. It would be nice if we all did that in a constructive and positive manner because we all want the best for this country and to make sure that our future is bright.

European Council

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend and I can certainly assure the whole House that he is absolutely right: we are working hard to get a good deal. We believe we can get a good deal. We believe there is will on both sides to get a good deal and that is absolutely our focus. He is also absolutely right, as I said in reply to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, that we have been clear and believe that the issues around our withdrawal and future relationships are inextricably linked. We are very pleased that the EU has now decided to start its own preparatory work on the future relationship and we are sure that once we begin adding that into the mix of discussions, these negotiations will continue to make the progress that we have seen over the past few days.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, on Brexit the unstated question which will be asked more and more insistently is: “Transition to what?”. On this point, will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House ask the Foreign Secretary whether he recalls from his days studying classical Greek the play “The Birds”, written by Aristophanes in the 4th century BC, in which having become dissatisfied with the governance of the realm the ruler of his country and his queen—Queen Sovereignty by name—commissioned the sacred birds to carry out a reconnaissance mission to find a more fitting place for the seat of his Government? They duly carried out this mission and reported that the name of this place was cloud-cuckoo-land.

Informal European Council

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are clear that we want to see a strong Europe and we want to have a strong partnership and relationship with Europe, but we will do it as a global and independent Britain.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

Contrary to the implications of the last question, is it not the case that the most likely immediate result of the geopolitical circumstances of the time, with the attitude of President Trump and the Brexit proposition, is that France and Germany will have much closer defence co-operation? The very thing that Britain has always been wary about will probably result in terms of very close defence co-operation within the European Union.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said repeatedly during this discussion, we want a strong Europe. We want a strong relationship and a new partnership with Europe. How Europe takes itself forward once we have left is for Europe to determine, but while we are still involved, we will play our strong part. I am much more optimistic, by the sound of it, than most noble Lords in this House that we will achieve a good deal for both us and our European partners.

Public Schools: Charitable Status

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will hold a consultation on the effects of the charitable status of public schools on equality of opportunity in Britain.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

Equality of opportunity is very much a concern of the independent sector. The Independent Schools Council census this year showed that £728 million of assistance was given by schools for fee costs. Of that, around £370 million was means tested to help lower-income families access independent school provision. Independent schools are playing their part, but we want all schools to be excellent, which is why the Government are continuing with our education reforms so that social mobility is improved across the board.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

First, on a narrow legal point, although the courts have deemed that there must be more than minimal benefit to the poor for a school to get charitable status, this is not left to the public interest to decide but left to the trustees—who are probably public schoolboys—to decide. One-nation Britain is not looking its best at present, and charity begins at home. I will quote some statistics on the composition of our own House of Lords. I think that the House would like to hear the data. Some 62% of Members of this House—79% of Conservative Members, 76% of Cross-Benchers and 34% of Labour Members—went to a public school.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I do not expect the House to want to listen. Ought we not to have an inquiry into all the evidence?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, 93% of pupils are in the state sector. This Government have been pursuing radical education reform to ensure that all parents have access to a good school. I am sure that the noble Lord will be delighted to hear that since 2010 1.4 million more children are now in a good or outstanding school. I am sure that he will also be delighted to know that more disadvantaged young people are going to university than ever before. We want to make sure that all young people have the best chance in life and that is why our reforms to the state education sector are so important.