Business of the House

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I shall begin by responding to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, who very helpfully quoted Mill at me. I absolutely agree that democracy requires the exercise of free speech. It also requires the following of rules and the exercise of its powers with responsibility. We have just heard a 30-minute speech. It may have been an excellent speech, and I am sure that if I now speak for 30 minutes it will be an excellent speech as well, but if I speak for 30 minutes, and all my colleagues speak for 30 minutes, we will never get to the substance of today’s debate. Therefore, your Lordships will be pleased to know that I do not intend to speak for 30 minutes—25 should be enough.

The burden of all these amendments is that the House is being expected to follow unprecedented procedures. Is this surprising? We are in extraordinary, unprecedented times. We are in a national crisis the like of which has not occurred in my lifetime. It is a national crisis which consists in no small part of the fact that there has been a collapse of government. The Prime Minister, after seven hours in Cabinet, addressed the nation to say that she would like the leader of the Opposition to tell her what to do and that, if she did not like that, she would go to the House of Commons and ask it to tell her what to do within hours of having to put something to the European Council next week in order to prevent no-deal Brexit. This collapse of government is unprecedented, and it would be slightly surprising if Parliament did not respond to it by taking unprecedented measures to fill the vacuum where normally one finds government. The third unprecedented point, which is unprecedented in human history, is that unless we prevent a no-deal Brexit at the end of next week, this country will be the first democracy ever to have agreed to make itself poorer, less secure and less influential. Therefore, it is unprecedented and needs dealing with in unprecedented ways.

The key element which means that it is necessary to deal with this Bill today is just how little time there is. We are talking about a very few days before the Prime Minister has to write to the European Council, hopefully with some view about why we should have a further extension. As of this minute, the only thing that can be written in that letter about why we are doing it is because we cannot think of what we want. I hope that by close of business on Monday we will be a bit further forward on that, but, if this House blocks this Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Owen, whom I do not always agree with, said earlier, how would that be perceived? How would it be perceived if we were to agree with the noble Lord, Lord True, that we could not possibly deal with this until a Select Committee had dealt with it? At a time of national crisis, I think that the world would think that your Lordships had lost a sense of proportion.

The other argument that has been made against the Bill, including by the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, is that it is unnecessary because of a commitment made by the Prime Minister. However, it is a sign of the confidence that the Commons has in the Prime Minister that it does not think that that is enough. It thinks—and I agree—that, unless we have something like this Bill, there is absolutely no assurance that the Prime Minister will come forward with the necessary guarantee.

Finally, I have two points to make about the amount of time that we have to debate the Bill. First, we will have longer to debate the Bill, the less time we waste on these procedural Motions. Secondly, I look forward to the debates that we shall have later. I look forward to the Second Reading and to debating amendments in Committee and on Report. I have brought my toothbrush. It will not be the first time that I have spent all night in your Lordships’ House, and many of my colleagues have done the same. We are here at the service—says he very pompously—of the country to debate this issue for as long as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and his colleagues want to debate it. No doubt we will hear the same arguments time and time again but, if that is what the noble Lord wants, I shall, as always, look forward to hearing them and will be in my place to listen to them, however long it takes.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord the leader of the Liberal Democrats will be glad to know that I shall be brief. I will address myself to the main point embedded in what he said. To begin with, this is a most appalling day. I have served in Parliament for 45 years and there has never been an instance of constitutional vandalism of the scale that we are witnessing today and at the present time more generally.

I am on the record as having long been concerned that in this country we do not have a written constitution. The reason that we do not have a written constitution is not that there is anything bad about written constitutions interpreted by the appropriate courts and safeguarded by the courts; it is our history. If one looks across the world, one sees that written constitutions come into being only when there is a historical discontinuity. For example, when a colony of the United Kingdom is given self-government, it equips itself with a written constitution—although ironically, or worse than ironically, it seems that the majority of the Members of this House do not believe that we are capable of self-government. A written constitution also comes into being following a bloody revolution and frequently after defeat in wartime. We have been blessed uniquely in this country in not suffering these historical discontinuities, and that is why, uniquely, we do not have a written constitution and have to rely on respect for the procedures of Parliament. However, we pay a price for not having a written constitution. We pay a price for having had a reasonably trouble-free history, unlike the rest of the world, and that price has become evident today and in recent days.

The main point made by the noble Lord the leader of the Liberal Democrats is that the issues surrounding Brexit are so important that it is necessary and right to tear up the constitution. However, the reverse is the case: the more important the issue, the more important it is that the constitution and the conventions are respected. As there is a really important substantive issue of a constitutional nature lying behind this, the more important it is that we respect the constitution and do not engage in this vandalism. I respect the fact that views differ on the length of this debate but I think that everybody agrees that this is a very important issue, including the noble Lord, who said so himself.

Wealth Inequality

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, it is simply not true: income inequality has not risen under this Administration. The £1,600 figure—which was immensely dubious even when it was first used three years ago—is now completely outdated by the fact that wages are rising in real terms. The key thing in terms of prosperity and, indeed, income distribution is to increase the number of jobs, to increase the number of well paid jobs. We have increased the number of jobs and vastly increased the number of apprentices. That is the how we are going to enable people from the bottom end of the income scale to do better in the future.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister referred to the forthcoming Private Member’s Bill to enshrine the 0.7% ODA figure in law. Is he aware that the Economic Affairs Committee of this House produced a unanimous report a short while ago pointing out very clearly and cogently why that would be wholly wrong?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am, the Government are, and we disagree with the committee.

Income Tax

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government have absolutely no plans to increase VAT.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, is it not a bit cheeky for the noble Lord, who is the eminence grise of the party opposite, to talk about recklessness, when his party’s policy is to increase the deficit even more?

Income Tax: Top Rate

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there is no £3 billion, as I have explained. The effect of the cut is £110 million. The other measures we have taken will bring in over a three-year period some £7 billion extra from the same people. For people on ordinary incomes, the rise in the income tax threshold means that by next year the typical basic rate taxpayer will be £805 per annum better off and 3.2 million people who were otherwise paying income tax will not be paying income tax at all.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, it may be difficult for the party opposite and my noble friends on the Liberal Democrat Benches to understand, but taxation has one purpose, and one purpose only, which is to raise revenue. The Minister said his memory is not very good, so may I remind him that when in 1988 I reduced the top rate of income tax from 60% to 40%, it brought in much more revenue and also resulted in the wealthy paying a higher proportion of tax than ever before? Will he reconsider his previous answer?

[Lord Newby]

No, my Lords, it simply is not true that the sole purpose of tax is to bring in revenue. Obviously every tax does bring in revenue, but some tax is introduced in order to affect behaviour. We are about to have a plastic bag tax but I do not think that the primary purpose of that tax is to bring in money.

Tax: Aggressive Tax Avoidance

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, at the start of this Parliament, we established the Office of Tax Simplification. It has done useful work in reducing the body of tax law, although clearly it has a long way to go. On the work that has been going on to tackle tax avoidance schemes, I think that the tax avoidance industry has got the message; the number of potential avoidance schemes notified to HMRC fell by 75% in the two years from 2010.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay is absolutely right, as is the noble Lord, Lord Rooker—the two things go together. When I was Chancellor some years back, I reduced tax rates substantially, eliminated a whole range of allowances and indeed abolished some stupid taxes altogether, and the result was a great increase in revenue. However, is there not another point? If, after you have done that—which I commend to the Government—there is still a real problem with avoidance of a particular tax. Is there not a case for abolishing that tax and replacing it with another one that is less easy to avoid?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think that that is easier said than done.

Economy: House Prices

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Thursday 3rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I remind the noble Lord that in Q1 2009 there were 17,000 housing starts and in Q1 2014 there were 36,000. There has been a major crash in the housebuilding sector. This is now being corrected with housing starts and planning permissions being significantly greater—typically around 30% more—than a year ago. I also remind the noble Lord that while we have had a rapidly rising population in the UK, for decades housing starts have been 200,000 fewer than in France, for example, where the population has not been rising in the same way. There is a chronic problem in housing. We are beginning to tackle it by programmes that support people buying their own home, liberalising planning and providing support for small to medium-sized housebuilders. This is not going to be an easy fix for a Government of any colour.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, while it is certainly very desirable that more houses are built in this country, does my noble friend not agree that the real problem is still the unmet need to streamline and speed up the planning process? Would it not be a good idea if all sides of the House would put pressure on this?

Economy: Interest Rates

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 18th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government have given the MPC the role of ensuring that inflation stays as near as possible to 2%. As the noble Lord knows, subject to that, the Government have given the committee the role of pursuing their policies in terms of employment and growth. Separate to what the Bank is doing, the Government have set in train a whole raft of policies, whether they be apprenticeships, reducing national insurance payable by businesses or increasing tax-free investment allowances, which we believe will lead to growth—non-inflationary growth. It is extremely interesting in terms of those two, as he says, incompatible points, that during the life of this Government we have been able to generate an additional 2 million jobs, and inflation over the period has, if anything, fallen.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, is it not simply the case that the 0.5% policy rate was a crisis rate, set because of the economic crisis in which this country was plunged, and the fact that we are now likely gradually to come to more normal rates of interest is a tribute to the fact that we are successfully emerging from that crisis?

[Lord Newby]

The noble Lord is exactly right. One of the benefits of a gradual increase in interest rates will be that savers, who have had a very poor return on their savings, will start to get what they would consider a more normal return in the future.

Economy: Inflation

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows that this Government and the previous Government decided to move to CPI from RPI as a measure of inflation simply because we believe it is a more appropriate way of measuring inflation. It is as straightforward as that. Everyone who is affected by CPI rather than RPI will be affected by a better measure of inflation.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, while the operational independence of the Bank of England on monetary policy is of the first importance, would my noble friend consider saying gently to the governors that their authority would be greater and the effectiveness of monetary policy enhanced if they were to talk rather less about matters that are market sensitive?

[Lord Newby]

There is a tension as far as the Bank of England is concerned. If it does not say anything it is criticised for not giving any indication of what it thinks; and when it does say something, it is criticised for saying what it thinks. That is an inevitable problem. On balance, it is better to have the governor and other members of the senior management of the Bank of England explaining what they think is happening to the economy, what they are doing and why they are doing it.

Economic Inequality

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Monday 10th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, one of the priorities of the Government is to ensure that work pays for everybody. This is one of the benefits that the Universal Credit will bring. This is one of the advantages of taking 2.7 million people out of income tax altogether. This is one of the reasons why my colleague, Vince Cable, has asked the Low Pay Commission to look at raising the minimum wage beyond what it might otherwise do, and this is why the Government support the living wage. Ensuring that work pays—and pays well—for people at modest levels of income is a top priority for this Government.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is far more important to focus on making the poor richer than on making the rich poorer?

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 27th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I am very grateful regarding a number of issues. The Government have said that they are going to move further and will probably —and, in most cases, definitely—bring something forward at Third Reading. That is excellent, but it means that we are going to have a lot of government amendments to consider for Third Reading. I stress what I said yesterday about how important it is that this House has plenty of time to consider the amendments that the Government, to whom I am grateful, will bring forward. They must be tabled at the earliest practicable date and well before the date set for Third Reading otherwise it will be necessary for that date to be postponed.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I understand the point being made by the noble Lord. I am not sure at this point, without further discussion, whether we need an amendment at Third Reading. We think that the way forward might be a PRA policy statement, but we can have urgent discussions with the noble Lord on that.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Before my noble friend sits down, can he give an undertaking that he will produce the further amendments he proposes to introduce at Third Reading in good time so that we can thoroughly evaluate them and decide whether they go far enough in meeting the commission’s requirements? There has been a tendency recently—I know that a lot of work is involved—to produce complicated amendments at the last minute which do not give noble Lords time to assess them properly.

[Lord Newby]

I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord says, and I can give an assurance that we will bring the amendments forward at the earliest possible point. I cannot say what day that will be, and we may of course have different definitions of “giving short notice”, but we will do our best to give the noble Lord several days’ notice. We hope that, as we get towards Third Reading, the number of amendments we bring forward will be much lower than at the previous stage.

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[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

I make one point of clarification on what my noble friend said. I apologise for my cold. It is absolutely necessary that the definition of “bank” should be extended in the way that the noble Lord has said. I am very pleased with that. He gave us a reason that these investment banks, or these investment institutions, might be a potential liability for the taxpayer. I hope he will withdraw that. It is very important that there is no taxpayer liability there. The reason we wanted it expanded is that we were concerned about banking standards, which was what this commission was all about: banking standards and culture. That is why it is necessary that there should be this regime for these banks, not because there might be a taxpayer risk or bailout.

[Lord Newby]

I can give the noble Lord that assurance.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, the amendment would introduce a system under which the regulators would be able to award compensation against a firm that mistreated a whistleblower. Whistleblowing is an important issue and the Government agree that we need to have a proper system for protecting whistleblowers in the financial services industry as elsewhere. However, I do not think that the noble Lord’s amendment would be a helpful addition to the legislative framework, particularly at this point. Let me explain why.

In the summer, the Government launched a call for evidence on the whistleblowing framework to see whether there was a case for reforming the law protecting whistleblowers. This will be able to take account of submissions from the financial services regulators as well as from other interested parties. The call for evidence closes on 1 November and, once the evidence has been assessed, the Government will consider what if any action needs to be taken. It would not be sensible to prejudge the outcome of the call for evidence and implement changes without first looking at all the evidence available to support any changes. Moreover, the Government do not think that it would be appropriate to have different laws or protections for whistleblowers in different sectors. It would not be right to suggest that whistleblowers were more deserving of protection in some sectors than in others. I am sure that this is not what the noble Lord intended, but there is a risk that giving the regulators a special role in protecting whistleblowers in the financial services sector will be seen as special treatment for that sector.

Finally, this power does not seem consistent with the role and competence of the financial services regulators. There is a comprehensive system of protection for employees in employment law, which applies across the board, protecting workers in every sector. It provides a route of redress using employment tribunals for individuals who have suffered a detriment or dismissal as a result of blowing the whistle.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

I think my noble friend may have slightly missed the point. It is well documented that what happens normally is not that the whistleblower is dismissed—then, of course, there is the protection of employment law—but that he is stuck in that job and will never ever have any further promotion. I may be wrong, but I do not think there is any redress under employment law for that.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, to the extent that there is or is not redress for that, the review which is under way will be looking at that element of the system as well as everything else. The evidence submitted, including by those who are keen to see the law changed and strengthened in that respect, will be able to take account of all that.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said something which I think is profoundly wrong, but I can understand why he said it. Will my noble friend the Minister make it absolutely clear that it is not the position of Her Majesty’s Government, and it is not the purpose of this Bill, to ensure that no ring-fenced bank will ever be allowed to fail? That is not the position; it must not be the position and I do not believe that it is the Government’s intention.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I can confirm what the noble Lord, Lord Lawson says. It is not the intention to have a situation where it is impossible for a ring-fenced bank to fail. What we are doing, particularly through the guarantee scheme, is ensuring that ordinary depositors are protected in those circumstances. Through these potential provisions we hope to ensure that there will be continuity of activity, which might not be the case without them.

In terms of the scope of these provisions, they are the fourth of what are now four options in the Banking Act for dealing with a bank that is in danger of failing. One is sale to another bank; one is the bridge bank and the other is nationalisation. Those measures apply to all banks covered by that legislation. I believe that that extends the measures beyond the ring-fenced banks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

I will take it back to the Treasury, but I want the noble Lord to be in no doubt as to what the Government are currently proposing.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

May I reinforce what others have said? I am horrified by the Minister’s explanation. He must take it back to the Treasury and get the Treasury to think again. I refresh his memory, for example, about the evidence that we took from UBS. Not only was it culpable to an extraordinary degree in the LIBOR scandal but its top management also said that it knew nothing about what its traders were doing. This was in spite of the fact that when it had its capital-raising exercise, it presented to all the funds that its great profit centre was trading in LIBOR derivatives. Then it said, “We know nothing about it”. This made it immensely culpable. The Minister is saying that if you had a bank that was not taking retail deposits but was doing just that, there would be no individual responsibility at all under this Bill. I am afraid that he must look at that again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I will try to sum up some of those points. One of the big challenges that we faced in producing the exact terms of this amendment was to produce a sanction which is a credible offence and could be successfully prosecuted. Setting the conditions to include that in all the circumstances the individual’s conduct fell far below what could reasonably be expected of them and that they were aware of the risk that a decision could cause the bank to fail gives us the clarity that we need. This will capture behaviour which in normal parlance or in normal view would be considered reckless.

The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, said that he was keen that this new offence should make people think. It will make people think, but equally it must have within it a degree of certainty that means that an offence could be prosecutable. This necessarily circumscribes the way in which we define it.

I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that his interpretation of the provisions in the Bill is correct.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

May I ask my noble friend one question? The commission’s recommendations refer to this as reckless misconduct. The word “reckless” is very important. Speaking to this, the Minister used the word “reckless”, but I do not see it in the amendment. Can he explain why?

[Lord Newby]

Yes, I hope I can. As I was just saying, we had to put in the Bill a form of words that would create a credible offence that could be successfully prosecuted. The two requirements that an individual’s conduct had to fall far below what could reasonably be expected of them and that they were aware of the risk they were taking, would, in the view of the lawyers, capture recklessness. It is a definition of recklessness without the use of the word. The wording gives a greater chance of having a credible offence than using the word “reckless”. It is an attempt to make sure that we have got something that we could use, while capturing the concept.

The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, asked about the difference between the heading and the text. My understanding is that headings of sections of the Bill do not constitute part of the Bill for legal reasons. It may be possible to improve the heading, but the noble Lord should not worry about it. The noble Lord asked whether any restrictions on conditions which were imposed might be made public. At first sight, I cannot see any reason why that should not be the case, but I will write to him to confirm the position.

We have had a good debate on these amendments. I commend the government amendments to the House.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, as noble Lords have said, the governance of the Bank of England was debated at great length just a year ago during the passage of the Financial Services Act. As a result of those debates, the Government accepted that the additional responsibilities for financial stability transferred to the Bank would put strain on its governance structures, and as a result we provided for a powerful new oversight committee, which has been established as a sub-committee of the Bank’s court.

These changes were introduced as recently as April this year and should be allowed time to develop. Making further changes now would serve only to introduce uncertainty into the Bank’s governance at a time of significant change in its senior management. It would also prevent the new system having time to prove itself. Moreover, it is the Government’s view that the amendments would weaken rather than strengthen the Bank’s governance structures.

I shall deal with the amendments in turn. Amendment 83 proposes that the name of the governing body should change from the court to the board of directors. Our view is simple: changing the name of the court would make no difference to how it operates in practice. Indeed, in substance the court now operates along the same lines as a modern plc board. It has a clear division between the role of the chief executive and non-executive chair; it is made up of a majority of independent non-executive directors; and there are formal, transparent appointment procedures for executive and non-executive directors alike.

Amendment 84 proposes that the number of non-executive directors should be reduced from nine to four and would require the appointment of a non-executive chairman. The reduction in the number of non-executive directors would drastically alter the balance of membership of the Bank’s governing body, resulting in an equal number of executive and non-executive members. It is our view that this would significantly reduce the level of independent advice and challenge available to the governors and increase the risk of decision-making becoming dominated by a small group. The court already has a non-executive chair, so we believe this proposal is unnecessary.

Amendments 85 and 86 propose abolishing the new oversight committee and rolling its powers into the proposed new board of directors. This would be a backward step for the accountability of the Bank. The oversight committee, which is made up exclusively of non-executives, was established to provide stronger challenge to the Bank’s executive. It has a clear remit to monitor the Bank’s performance against its objectives and strategy, including the Bank’s monetary and financial policy objectives. In order to deliver these responsibilities, the committee has the power to appoint any person to review any matter. These powers cover not only the Bank’s operational performance but also its policy decisions. These responsibilities are very important to the accountability of the Bank, and the Government believe they must continue to be carried out by a non-executive body independent from the policy-making process. These amendments would transfer the powers of the oversight committee to a board of directors whose membership included the governor and three deputy governors of the Bank. It cannot be right for the governors to have a role in scrutinising the policy processes that they themselves are responsible for administering, especially when the processes in question are of such vital national importance.

These amendments also seek to introduce more specific legislation to govern how the performance of the Bank’s policy functions are monitored. This is unnecessary. The oversight committee already has wide-ranging powers to review the Bank’s performance in relation to any matter, including specific provision to review the procedures of the MPC and Financial Policy Committee. The Government also believe that it is unnecessary to introduce legislation covering requests for information. The current arrangements are effective, and historically the Bank has been very co-operative with both the Treasury and Parliament. Moreover, Parliament already has wide-ranging powers to hold public authorities to account, including the power to call any witnesses to appear in front of any of its committees, as the governors of the Bank of England know only too well.

Amendment 87 would require the Chancellor to appoint an additional external member to the FPC with experience of financial crises. The FPC’s objectives—

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

It has not been moved yet.

[Lord Newby]

I believe it is in this group. I hope that noble Lords will not mind if I deal very briefly with it, and we will come back to it if that is the wish of the House. Amendment 87 would require the Chancellor to appoint an additional external member with experience of financial crises. The FPC’s objectives are to exercise its functions with a view to contributing to the achievement of the Bank of England’s financial stability objective and, subject to that, support the economic policy of Her Majesty’s Government, including their objectives for growth and employment. The Government agree with the commission on the importance of ensuring that the FPC has the necessary expertise and experience to understand and draw lessons from history. The current membership of the FPC equips it to do so. In the Government’s response to the PCBS we will take this into account, alongside other relevant factors, when making future appointments to the FPC. However, I do not think it is either necessary or desirable to include a provision of this nature in legislation. It risks constraining the Government’s flexibility, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes said, to appoint the best candidates by placing particular emphasis on only one of a number of criteria relevant to the appointment process.

I am also not persuaded that the balance of the FPC should be changed by the addition of a fifth external member. The current composition strikes the right balance between ensuring that there is sufficient input from the Bank, as executive, and internal Bank of England expertise, while supporting the role of the external non-executives in providing a challenge to members’ thinking. Furthermore, the oversight committee, a sub-committee of the Court of Directors consisting of the non-executive directors of the Bank, is able to undertake or commission reviews of the FPC’s performance, ensuring that it is held to account for its decisions. The oversight committee also monitors the processes of the FPC to ensure that all members have the required information and to tackle any emergence of groupthink. In view of these arguments, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister has just pathetically addressed Amendment 87. None of his arguments stack up. We are saying here that it would be desirable—I cannot understand why the Government are opposing this—that there should be an additional external member who would have great knowledge and he might even be an academic, which would enormously please the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. However, he need not be an academic; he could be someone who had a great knowledge of past financial and banking crises.

I think it was the philosopher Immanuel Kant who first observed that the only lesson of history is that no one ever learns the lessons of history. Financial crises are not unique; there have been a series of them over the years, both in this country and in the western world more generally. We commissioned a study of past financial crises. It was conducted by an excellent man, Mr John Sutherland of the Bank of England. It is remarkable how the same mistakes were made time and again. Everyone knows now about the crisis of 2008, but the time will come when that generation will have learnt the lessons of their own lifetime but not of the past, and it would be extremely useful to have someone on the Financial Policy Committee with such knowledge and expertise. It may not prevent a further substantial crisis but it will, at trivial cost, reduce the risk significantly. I cannot understand why the Government object to this.

My noble friend the Minister said that there should not be this guidance; that the Government should be able to appoint the best people. In other words, they should be able to appoint people who have no knowledge of past financial crises. Why do they want to do that? Why on earth is the reason they should want to do that when they have been given this opportunity to buttress all the other excellent measures in the Bill with someone on the FPC who has some knowledge and understanding of previous financial crises? Such knowledge is not widespread among the great majority of people. I have known this neck of the woods for a long time and there is very little knowledge of previous financial crises, yet there is a lot to be learned from them. It seems to me that the Government could easily accept having someone on the FPC who has this knowledge and I cannot understand why they do not do so.

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[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I shall be brief; the hour is getting late. Like the amendment that I spoke to earlier about the desirability of having somebody on the Financial Policy Committee who had some knowledge of past financial crises, which I regret that the Government have not accepted, this amendment is also a proposal of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. It is about lobbying. The context of this applies to all bank lobbying, but it is particularly important in the context of what we were discussing last week in Committee, namely the ring-fence. We were very concerned, as my noble friend the Minister will recall, that this should be strengthened and kept under review. We had various proposals to that end.

In the United States, the parallel was the separation through the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. That, as my noble friend the Minister will be aware, was gradually eroded over time. It was eroded in two ways. First, the banks found ways round it to some extent. More importantly, by extensive lobbying, the banks were able to get the Government of the day to do a little amendment here and a little amendment there, which created loopholes which did not previously exist. We know that, following the recommendation for the ring-fence in the Vickers commission and report, the banks only accepted it with gritted teeth. They were not happy; they accepted it very reluctantly. They will clearly be seeking any way they can, including through lobbying, to get a change here and a change there over time which will enable them to undermine the ring-fence. That is natural; they feel it to be in their interest.

Times have changed. When I became Chancellor 30 years ago, the Bank of England had no responsibility for monetary policy, which was my responsibility. It did however have the dual responsibility of the regulation and supervision of the banking sector, and being the sponsoring department for banks, representing the interests of the banks to the Chancellor of the day. If the banks had points to make in those days, they would go first and only to the Governor of the Bank of England. The governor would assess whether he felt there was merit in what they were saying, and if there was he would go and see the Chancellor and put the banks’ points to him. That has all changed. Now, the banks go directly to the Government of the day. Indeed it is no secret that the carpets in Number 10 and Number 11 Downing Street have been worn almost threadbare by the lobbying of the banks. That caused great concern to the previous Governor of the Bank of England, and we had some concern about it in the commission. We felt that the best remedy was encapsulated in this amendment: that if the Governor of the Bank of England of the day feels concerned, he should be able to flag it up in a public way. The hope is that that deterrent will keep the amount of lobbying within reasonable bounds. There is the opportunity to do that, and indeed there is a requirement to do that.

That is what we are suggesting in this amendment. Even though the hour is late, I hope that my noble friend will reflect seriously on this proposal and the merit of accepting it.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that the Governor of the Bank of England should never hesitate to speak out should he have concerns about the influence of lobbying by the financial services industry. However, we do not believe that there is a problem. Indeed, I fully expect that the governor would raise the alarm to both the Government and Parliament if he believed that any particular factor or circumstances, including lobbying by a bank, seriously put at risk the Bank’s ability to meet its objectives.

However, the Government do not believe that it is either necessary or desirable for this specific requirement to be placed on the statute book. The Financial Services Act 2012 brought together responsibility for all aspects of financial stability within the Bank of England group. As a result, the Bank has a statutory objective to protect and enhance the stability of the financial system. The Government are confident that the governor will act appropriately if he believes that excessive lobbing is impeding the Bank’s ability to meet that objective, which would obviously be the case if there was lobbying with the intention of undermining the ring-fence. Indeed, the Bank has already committed to raising the alarm in such circumstances in its response to the Commission on Banking Standards.

Therefore, while we fully accept that one of the roles of the governor is to raise the alarm if he believes that bank lobbying or indeed anything else creates a risk of undermining the stability or regulation of the banking sector, it is simply not necessary to have such a requirement in the Bill.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

I have heard what my noble friend has said and I am slightly reassured. I hope that the present Governor of the Bank of England will read those words and will realise that, without it being on the statute book, he has been charged by the Government with a duty to raise the alarm if there is any case of excessive lobbying. I am very glad to have that on the record, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 24th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate this evening, particularly members of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards—not so much for their contributions tonight, excellent though they were, but for the phenomenal amount of work they did on the commission. For months on end it was impossible to discuss anything with my noble friend Lady Kramer because she was either in a meeting, just going to one or in the middle of reading great piles of stuff. I know they did a huge amount of work. I share the views expressed by my noble friend Lord Lawson and others about the extraordinary leadership that Andrew Tyrie gave in driving that process forward.

I believe the Bill has been marked by a readiness on the Government’s part to listen and respond to a wide range of views. The Government have already made a series of amendments to the Bill in response to the recommendations of the PCBS and have shown willing to keep listening and to fine-tune their provisions as the debate on these issues continued to unfold. We will make further changes to the Bill in this House in response to the constructive debates in another place and here, in particular on the firm-specific electrification power. We will also introduce amendments to implement the recommendations of the PCBS’s final report on culture and standards.

The debate today has confirmed the broad consensus and strength of feeling across the House about the great significance of the measures contained in this Bill and those shortly to be added to it. In the time available now, I cannot deal with every issue that noble Lords raised. Indeed, some issues went significantly further than the Bill itself. Of course, we will return to all these issues in Committee. Many of the principal issues mentioned by a number of noble Lords were first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. I will deal with them in the same order that he did.

There has been a lot of discussion about whether this is a watering-down as opposed to an enabling Bill in terms of what it contains. There are many further, detailed provisions to be made to implement the changes and we have taken the view that these are not all most suitably dealt with in primary legislation. That is why there is a lot of material to be done in secondary legislation. A lot of the detailed rules will be made by the PRA. I hope that we are able during the course of debates to explain how we see some of those being implemented in detail but the principle of having much of the regulation done by secondary legislation was agreed by the parliamentary commission.

The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, asked where we disagreed with the commission. I recommend that he looks at our response to its first report, which we issued on 4 February, and our response to its other four reports, which we issued earlier this month. In the second of those, a table at the back lists each of the recommendations and the text earlier on explains our response to it. Both those responses are available on the Treasury website.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

I accept in principle that there is a lot which will need to be in secondary legislation. Nevertheless, it would be helpful if the proposed secondary legislation could be provided in draft so that we know exactly what the Government have in mind and can form a view accordingly.

[Lord Newby]

Of course, my Lords. Much of the secondary legislation was published earlier this month. I would like to suggest—both in terms of the secondary legislation and the amendments and how we reconcile the text in the Bill with earlier legislation—that we contact noble Lords between now and the end of the Session explaining our timetable for producing material, if we have not already done so. If we have produced material, we will let noble Lords have it at that point. Specifically, the noble Lords, Lord Higgins and Lord Tunnicliffe, referred to reconciling the Bill with the existing FiSMA. We will make a Keeling schedule available before the end of the Session showing the effects of the amendments in the Bill.

Banking: Regulation

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Thursday 11th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think that I can give that assurance as far as the Liikanen proposals are concerned. As the noble Lord probably knows, the Government believe that there is no incompatibility between what he is proposing and what the Government are doing in respect of banking and the banking reform Bill. I am confident that the Government are acting with all due speed on these measures, and indeed in some areas we have moved more quickly than the EU as a whole has been able to do.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, as a member of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, I remind my noble friend the Minister that in our unanimous report we were in fact highly critical of the emerging European Union banking regulation, and indeed not greatly enamoured of the approach of Basel III either. We made it clear that, given that London is the only world-class financial centre within the European time zones, it is incumbent upon this country to put in place whatever system of bank regulation we feel is necessary to address the problems that have emerged.

[Lord Newby]

Yes, my Lords, and of course that is exactly what we are doing with the banking reform Bill.

Bank of England: National Debt

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Treasury has always accepted that it might find itself paying back money to the Bank of England. The noble Lord will be aware that the original situation was that the Bank was buying Treasury bills and collecting interest on them. The Treasury was paying the interest to the Bank, which was then sitting on the interest. What we have done, in line with America and Japan, which have broadly the same scheme, is ensure that that money, which amounts to some £19 billion to date, has been transferred back to the Treasury. We have always accepted that there could be a reverse flow as bills are sold back into the market or expire, but that will take place over a significant period. We believe that it is sensible to operate in that way.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, following the supplementary question from my noble friend from the Liberal Democrat Benches, can my noble friend the Minister confirm that the requirement on banks to raise more capital will in no way reduce the amount of lending to SMEs? That is just special pleading by the banks. In fact, more capital will be enabled to be lent to SMEs. While he is on his feet, can he also confirm that a good bank/bad bank split of the Royal Bank of Scotland Group as soon as possible would also greatly assist more lending to SMEs?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the noble Lord’s views on the good bank/bad bank split are well known. As he knows, the Treasury is now looking at that. We are hopeful that as economic conditions improve, lending to SMEs will increase in any event, but I have been surprised over the past three years by the extent to which the views of the banks about the demand from SMEs for lending have not been matched by the self-professed requirements of SMEs. I think that at every stage the banks could and should have done more.

Banking: Quantitative Easing

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, to deal with that last point I will say that we do not need a change in the Bank of England Act because its basic provisions—namely, of inflation-targeting, and this year, as in previous years, we have a 2% inflation target—remain in place. The Chancellor has suggested, in changing the remit, that it would be appropriate for the MPC to deploy new explicit forward guidance, including intermediate thresholds, in order to influence expectations and meet its objectives more effectively.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, on the subject of the Bank of England’s remit, I warmly welcome the fact that the Government have firmly decided not to move away from the inflation target to a nominal GDP target, and have given very good reasons why that would be a disastrous course. Will the Minister take this opportunity to make it clear that neither the Government nor the Bank of England are pursuing a policy of exchange rate depreciation?

Banking: Regulation

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Newby

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

Yes, my Lords, I completely agree. One of the things that the banking crisis has demonstrated is that the banks understand the international situation better than Governments understand it. One of the things that we have been trying to do, both through the EU and internationally, is to close that gap. No doubt the noble Lord has seen the article in the FT today by Paul Tucker from the Bank of England and Martin Gruenberg, the chair of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation in the States, which looks specifically at how you deal with resolving problems concerning the largest systemically important banks in the world.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, while the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is undoubtedly correct that international co-operation is desirable, will the Minister give an undertaking that we shall not hold back on what needs to be done simply because international co-operation may not be forthcoming or, even if it is, it may not be adequate?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I absolutely agree. That is why we have been in the forefront of bringing forward plans under which banking problems can be resolved and why, under the Banking Reform Bill, we are looking at having a ring-fence around retail banks so that we do not have the problems that we have had in the past. This will go ahead, whatever happens internationally. I hope very much that there will be international action, but action that is based very much on the British model and with British leadership.