Energy: Gas

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Tuesday 29th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

I totally agree, although I am not sure I agree that there is a seriously developing situation. We now have 240 years of gas supply throughout the world, which is extremely encouraging. What is more, that gas supply is very liberally scattered across countries such as Mozambique, which has just discovered gas, and Algeria, which has discovered more shale gas, as has America. I do not hold with the last point made by the expert noble Lord.

However, clearly this is no time for complacency and this may be an opportunity for me to say that we have 150% of LNG capacity in this country above demand. We are increasing the amount of storage by 20%. We still have just under 50% of our own supply. We have had unprecedented demand for our new round of licences. So the situation is not as gloomy as the noble Lord indicated.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that the best way of safeguarding our gas supplies is the most rapid development of our indigenous shale gas resources? Will he give an undertaking that the Government will present no impediment to the rapid exploration and development of our own shale gas?

[Lord Marland]

I cannot guarantee that there will be no impediments; nor would my noble friend expect me to. The reality is that we are taking this very thoroughly and steadily. The Government fully support this development. At the moment, according to the British Geological Survey, shale gas equates to only 5% to 10% of our potential gas supply, but it is still a significant figure.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

No one knows.

[Lord Marland]

As my noble friend says, no one knows. The British Geological Survey’s latest report, which we await with bated breath, will be very indicative.

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

It is difficult to attack the big six. EDF, which announced its results today, makes no margin at all on delivering domestic supply to homes. We must be very careful when we attack these companies, which are genuinely trying to supply and are, of course, struggling with major increases in global oil and gas prices outside their control.

Of course, the Government have a load of initiatives for improving things. Reducing demand at home is absolutely fundamental, as the noble Baroness will know better than I do. The Green Deal will be fundamental to that. These various initiatives will try to protect the consumer. Believe you me, the consumer is at the heart of all our policy-making and, at this time, needs to be.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, perhaps I may be of assistance to my noble friend by suggesting to him a way in which he could reduce fuel poverty at a stroke—abolishing the whole raft of measures, from the carbon floor price to the renewables obligation and massive subsidies for wind power, all of which are designed to push up energy costs at the expense of fuel poverty, British industry and the British economy, to no effect in the absence of a global decarbonisation agreement, which the Minister knows perfectly well is not on the cards.

[Lord Marland]

I am pleased that the noble Lord felt he was being of assistance. I am not entirely sure that it quite fits with my dictionary’s definition of “assistance”, but I take on board what he said. He is bowling a straight military medium over and we are quite used to it. I shall consider the word “assistance”.

Energy: Carbon Capture and Storage

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, it is difficult to disagree with any single word that the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, said. He is obviously a leading expert in the field. It is gratifying to hear him make a statement like this and be so supportive of the Government’s plans.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, is it not clear that the withdrawal of the Longannet proposal demonstrates what most people who have studied this know, that carbon capture and storage is a lovely idea but is both technologically improbable and economically prohibitive? Is it not about time, when there is great financial and public spending stringency, that the Government stopped throwing money at this lost cause?

[Lord Marland]

My noble friend Lord Lawson makes several good points. The reality is that that is why, having been the negotiating Minister for the project, I decided to call a stop to it. I felt that the financing for this particular project was going off the dial. We have been given an envelope with which to invest, one that is more than generous for the prospect. It is part of the coalition agreement and there is support from all sides of the House that we press on with this groundbreaking technology. Britain is famous for groundbreaking technology and we should—and will—continue to invest in that.

Electricity Market Reform

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, this is a most extraordinary Alice through the Looking Glass Statement. Is my noble friend the Minister not aware that almost every single assertion in it is the precise reverse of the truth? Is he not aware that if renewable energy was genuinely cheaper than conventional carbon-based energy, there would be no need for this plethora of measures? Is he not aware that every single energy expert, from Ofgem to all the independent experts in the universities, Professor Dieter Helm and so on, has said that the Government’s policies will lead to a substantial increase in electricity prices?

My noble friend mentioned 2030. Is he not aware that the Treasury has estimated that the carbon floor price alone will lead to an increase in electricity prices of between 60 and 70 per cent by 2030, to the great detriment of the consumer, British industry and the British economy, which—goodness knows—is in a fragile condition as it is? On this issue, the Government’s policies are not the solution but the problem.

[Lord Marland]

It is always a joy to hear my noble friend—as indeed he is. Let me quote him back a figure on prices. Is he not aware that electricity prices went up 18 per cent in one week? Forget 60 per cent in the time span he is talking about; they have gone up 18 per cent in one week. Why? Because we have been reliant on fossil fuels imported from other countries, with no control over security of supply.

With due deference to his great knowledge and to his great achievements as an Energy Minister and in the Treasury, he must be aware that there has been no investment in the energy infrastructure of this country in the past 20 years. The Government of which he was part and the previous Government were part of that. He must at least give credit for the fact that we are about to embark upon a massive investment and that, in order to establish an investment, you have to set out a pathway on which people have clarity for their investment.

My noble friend has quoted various institutions to me, and I would like to make him aware that we have consulted and discussed this with every energy supplier in the country and with a wide range of people. By and large, as much as one can possibly tell, this has been universally applauded by the industry and those who are seeking to invest. We may be proven wrong but, at the moment, it is all looking quite good.

Weightman Report

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has made some excellent points and I should like to tackle them head on, as I hope I always do. She made the valuable point about having a debate in this House. Between us, we have tried to get a debate in the House but sadly the order of business up to Recess prevents that, despite our efforts. We should have that debate in this House because, on all sides of the Chamber, we have incredible knowledge and expertise particularly in this nuclear field and, broadly speaking, a consensus of views which will allow us to make progress in the nuclear industry now that we have this excellent report that Dr Weightman has done with such efficiency and in so short a timeframe.

Quite naturally, he has not yet been close up to the site but will go next week. It shows the esteem in which he is held within the international community that the IAEA has itself chosen him to write the broad-scale report on Fukushima. We should congratulate him on that and have great pride that he has been chosen to do it. As I said clearly in our Statement, the report’s recommendations for future safety will be acted upon. We will ensure that they are acted upon speedily. The ONR—the regulatory authority is independent, unlike in many other countries—is led by Dr Weightman and will oversee that.

On the issue of the delay, there has been delay as a result of these tragic events. They were indeed tragic. There was delay and various members of the political community, including the Deputy Prime Minister, were quite right to put forward their views and concerns as a result of this terrible tragedy. However, we as a Government are committed to new nuclear. We are committed to no subsidy for it because we believe it is a mature industry with a great deal of expertise and there is the finance available to make it happen. We will be pressing as hard as we can to achieve this and make up for lost time. Dr Weightman’s report gives us the platform to progress and with the support of your Lordships I hope we can do it.

Moving briefly to the excellent point about the carbon floor price—of course it supports nuclear; of course it supports renewables; of course it supports a lot of the activities that we are carrying out to ensure that we have nuclear security and to achieve our stated goal of a low-carbon economy.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, perhaps I may say how much I endorse both Dr Weightman’s report and my noble friend’s statement on the safety grounds, which of course are of the first importance. Dr Weightman’s findings fully tally with the view I took almost 30 years ago when, as Secretary of State for Energy, I fired the starting pistol for Sizewell B. The problem with nuclear is not a matter of safety provided we have the very high safety standards we have always had in this country. After all, we were the first country to produce nuclear energy for the grid, in 1956. We have had no serious problems in this country and if we maintain these standards it is not a problem.

The problem is the economic one. My noble friend said no subsidy, but as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said, the carbon floor price is a subsidy. How about doing away with that and with all the greatly increased subsidies for renewables? If you want a non-carbon energy, nuclear energy is infinitely more competitive than wind and all the other renewables. How about taking advantage—in the rather fragile economic conditions in which this country finds itself—of the abundance of gas available for generating electricity far more cheaply and actually producing revenue for the Exchequer instead of having a hand in the Exchequer’s pocket?

[Lord Marland]

We owe a great debt to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, as one of the founders of the nuclear industry in this country—

EU: Emissions Trading Scheme

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The great thing about the British system is that the International Emissions Trading Association has made it clear that we are the most secure of any European country. That does not mean for one moment that we should be complacent—in fact we must be even more vigilant given the potential for cyberattacks and the fraud attacks that have been made on other registries. That is why we recently worked with the European Union on a process to demonstrate the security of our registry—and my thanks here to the Environment Agency for the excellent work that it has done. I hope we can yet again show leadership in Europe on this issue.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

If my noble friend the Minister wishes to show leadership in Europe, perhaps I may ask him a question about that. I am delighted to hear that the UK registry is in good nick, but the fact is that we are part of a European emissions trading system. That system—in the accurate words of the Wall Street Journal recently—has been a story of “serial theft and fraud”, which is continuing. What are Her Majesty’s Government going to do about that?

[Lord Marland]

We are not going to do a lot about other people’s registries at this point but I can confirm that there will be a single European registry in 2013 which I think will iron out a lot of problems. I hope the leadership and direction that we have shown with our own registry will become the benchmark for the single European registry, and again I commend the work of our agencies and Government in securing this very fine example.

Climate Change: Cancun

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

A legally binding agreement is very difficult to achieve, as we have seen from Copenhagen and Cancun. Do we, in reality, need a legally binding agreement? Are we not better just having an agreement under which we transparently announce the requirements for verification and for reporting, and for all those sorts of issues? If they are transparent, people can see what progress is being made. Of course, we would all like a legally binding agreement, but it is rather a big ask among the 193 countries, with their different laws.

One of the very valuable things about Cancun was how well team Europe did at the table, as opposed to at Copenhagen where it was viewed to have been marginalised. The European team’s endeavour was much greater at Cancun. As I said earlier, our own Secretary of State and officials who now lead team Europe were very much at the forefront of negotiations, and I know that they are determined to press for a tight strategy for these processes to come to fruition rather than just for general talking.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in his satisfaction with an outcome that binds no country to anything at all. In that event, however, does he not agree that the position of the United Kingdom, which, alone in the world, has bound itself legally to a massive decarbonisation agreement at huge cost and by a specific date, is utterly incomprehensible, not to say quixotic?

[Lord Marland]

As I think the noble Baroness said, there are a few cynics in the House, although they might claim to be realists. I believe that the fundamental Conservative principle is that we put the taxpayer first, as the noble Lord so excellently did when I worshipped him as the great reforming Chancellor. However, he also knows that Britain is a great country because it has shown leadership, and this is what we are doing; we are putting Britain at the forefront of this by showing leadership.

Climate Change: Cancun

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his question. I also thank him for the work that he has done with the Tearfund and Carbon Fast, and for the leadership that the Church of England has shown with Shrinking the Footprint, which will produce a 42 per cent reduction in its carbon emissions by 2020. The leadership by all Churches is very important to this subject. I am rather delaying the great opportunity that the right reverend Prelate has given me: to be able to announce that the pledge made by the Labour Government to fast start finance of £1.5 billion between 2010 and 2013 is, I am happy to say, now a reality.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the chairman of the Government’s own Green Investment Bank commission has authoritatively stated that the cost of meeting our current carbon reduction commitments in this country is somewhere between £800 billion and £1 trillion? Does he not agree that, with the best will in the world, this mind-boggling cost cannot be justified except in the context of a binding global carbon reduction agreement? Therefore, in the absence of such an agreement being secured at Cancun, does he not agree that it is only commonsense to suspend the Climate Change Act until such time as a binding global agreement is secured?

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, when I bumped into my noble friend in the Corridor and he said that he was catching the train to York I was rather relieved. Sadly, he will be catching a slightly later train than I was hoping for. I have now forgotten entirely what his question was.

Energy: Renewables

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Monday 5th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House. Is my noble friend aware that only a couple of days ago, Mr Bob Wigley, the chairman of the previous Government’s Green Investment Bank Commission, stated that meeting the requirements of the absurd Climate Change Act will cost the United Kingdom £50 billion a year, every year, for the next 40 years. How—above all in this age of austerity—can this possibly be justified?

[Lord Marland]

I am very grateful to noble Lords for fighting over a question for me; it is quite rare in this job. However, I must correct my noble friend; the Green Investment Bank was an initiative set up by our own party and one must not rule out the phenomenal business opportunities that it offers for this country. We must have 2 million heat pumps by 2020. We must have bioenergy, which will create 100,000 jobs at a value of £116 million. Wind alone should create 130,000 jobs at a value of £36 billion. At a time when the country needs investment, these are heartening numbers.

Climate Change: UN Framework Convention

Debate between Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Marland

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, rarely has so much political capital been spent in trying to reach that agreement in Copenhagen, so it is a bit much to ask that it will happen in Cancun. We are optimistic that, unlike the England football team, we might get a result in South Africa in 2011, but, as the noble Lord will know, we need to be patient and realistic and to develop a dialogue with countries that do not row in tune with us at the moment.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, given that, as my noble friend’s answer implies, a unilateral UK climate policy makes no sense in scientific, economic or political terms, will he give an undertaking that should Cancun not result in an ambitious and binding global agreement to cap emissions, the United Kingdom Government will fundamentally re-examine and re-evaluate our climate change and energy policies in the light of the outcome of Cancun? If not, why not?

[Lord Marland]

I thank my noble friend Lord Lawson for his question. His views are widely known, and I compliment him, incidentally, for bringing a great wealth of knowledge to this debate. However, his views are, I am afraid, not in line with the Government’s policy. This Government are committed to a green agenda. Climate change is one of the gravest threats that we face as a nation and as a world. Urgent action at home and abroad is required to tackle it. The overwhelming weight of scientific evidence from a range of independent sources indicates that global temperatures are rising due to human activities, and temperatures are set to increase over the coming century. It is our duty as a Government to solve these problems.