Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, who asked some relevant and useful questions about this while welcoming the new clause and the advisory committee on medical devices as a statutory body. I join him in that and think it is a very welcome move on the Government’s part. The analogy with the Commission on Human Medicines is helpful. As regards translating the Devices Expert Advisory Committee into a statutory role, in effect, in the process, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested, there is considerable scope to think about how the Government’s new and expanded roles in the regulation of medical devices can be supported by the advisory committee.

I have a number of points. The first reflects the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which is that the MHRA has an enviable reputation as a regulatory authority for the approval of medical devices. If I recall correctly, among the European regulatory bodies something like 40% of the most important or significant medical devices were authorised by the MHRA. Other regulatory authorities in other countries will seek to supplant that. However, our reputation should enable us to establish an international position, and I hope that the advisory committee will not be confined to expertise from within the United Kingdom. There is a lot to be said for positioning the MHRA as a body providing internationally recognised authorisations for medical devices, and its scientific evaluation in that respect should be something that others look to. I therefore hope that that will assist if we have some international participation in the advisory committee structure.

Secondly, I recall, not least in the context of the vexed experience of the PIP breast implant issues back in 2010-11, that the role of notified bodies is very important. Hitherto they have, in essence, been regulated by the European Commission, not by the UK Government, but they fall to be UK-regulated in future. There are not many of them, but there is considerable benefit in there being an advisory committee sub-committee which is focused on the work of the notified bodies. That was the weak link that probably led to the PIP breast implant problems. The regulation is all very well but we have to have bodies that we are confident are able to deliver on these things. The few notified bodies we have in this country are highly respected but we want to make sure that that is maintained even as further notified bodies are authorised.

Thirdly, I recognise that the Devices Expert Advisory Committee has leading clinicians from Scotland and Wales in its membership. However, this must be a UK advisory function, as the MHRA is. I wonder whether it would be appropriate for there to be in addition a Northern Ireland representative on the committee and for there to be perhaps some specific mechanisms to ensure that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented in the regulations that establish the advisory committee.

I have one further point, which is that I hope that the various categories of medical devices are very carefully examined and the relevant expertise is available in relation to those. So, for example, on digital devices it is important that we have not only the clinical expertise to deal with the safety of medical devices we have at the moment but the technical expertise in the advisory committee to understand how digital devices will work in the future. That must also be the case in the special interests section related to in vitro diagnostic devices. I hope that that also will have its own special advisory committee function.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I support Amendments 51 to 53 because it is important that the new clause will read “must” instead of “may”, so that the advice on medical devices will be clear and should be followed. “May” means it can be optional and makes the regulations weaker, and people might miss important aspects of care. There is no doubt that clear, correct information is the way to better patient safety. In many ways, communication within the National Health Service should be improved.

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[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llandaff for alerting me to the fact that government Amendment 45 pre-empted our Amendment 46. They were grouped on different days, but I am pleased that others were thinking on the same wavelength.

I am very happy to support Amendment 66 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of King’s Heath. The availability of medicines and medical devices is top of my priority list. In fact, antibiotics have saved my life on several occasions. It is important that NICE adheres to health equality: everyone who needs medicines or medical devices should be treated equally and there should be no delay. Unfortunately, with this devious coronavirus, this has not happened, but we hope for better days.

Having experienced a member of my family dying, I know that sometimes it seems worth trying anything that might help and that is in the research process. There are many really rare diseases which need orphan drugs; they can be a lifeline to the individual. I hope that NICE will consider them without delay and realise their importance and value to these small patient groups. It is so frustrating when patients in Scotland and other European countries can get medicines and medical devices, when those in England cannot; patients here have to wait—unless the public come to their rescue by crowd funding.

Many users of devices also need instruction on their use, and staff and patients need training. Personal medicine is so important and patient safety is absolutely paramount.

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of King’s Heath, for his amendment and for the way he introduced it. It very helpfully allows us, at this very important moment, to take stock of how we secure the availability of medicines—although the legislation does not relate to NICE, and I am sure it will not surprise the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that I do not think it is appropriate for us to legislate to tell NICE how to do its work, given its independent statutory constitution. None the less, the Bill is about the availability of medicines, and it is really important for us to identify how the NICE processes can assist in ensuring that we get medicines to those who need them.

I shall say a few words about the NICE processes. First, let me address the objective, from my point of view. When I was Secretary of State, I advocated a process called “value-based pricing”, which was to try to understand that not only were there quantitative factors measured in quality-adjusted life years—QALYs —which, if one were able to secure them, gave one a quantitative basis for understanding the value of a new medicine, but that in addition there were other qualitative aspects, which I described as the societal benefits and the innovation benefits. I still think that this is the right approach.

In the international context, many countries are trying to escape the potential downward spiral of reference pricing, where everybody is trying to pay less than the average. The net result, if we carry on down that path and if the American Administration pursue that path, will be that we end up with inadequate support for the industry for the development of new and innovative medicines.

What we need to do is to value innovation and support the industry for the value it delivers. However, we do not measure it precisely in those terms. When we look at our current structure in this country, we need to understand that there is an opportunity created by what is known as VPAS—the voluntary pricing and access scheme. If it is genuinely the case, and we have argued that it should be, that the industry has accepted a constraint on the overall growth of the medicines budget in the NHS, and if it is clear that, if that growth is exceeded, there will be a rebate and that rebate does indeed return to benefit patients, through the NHS or the innovative medicines fund, so promoting access to new medicines, then we will arrive at the point where both NICE and NHS England should be working together to try to secure the best value from that drugs budget. I think they should be working together to ensure that, where there is a mandate for a new medicine, it is one which is supported by, not imposed upon, NHS England. That is increasingly where we should be aiming to arrive: at a combined thought.

What goes into value-based pricing matters enormously as well. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to some of the important aspects. First, it is about societal values. For example, if we can deliver a health gain among the parts of our population where health outcomes are poorest, then we should ascribe additional value to that health gain. A modifier for health inequalities is consistent, for example, with the statutory responsibilities of the NHS to seek to address and reduce health inequalities.

Unmet medical need makes a difference. Incremental effectiveness of medicines is important, but to have a medicine available for those who thought that there was no opportunity for treatment available to them from the NHS can make an enormous difference, and I think we should ascribe additional value to that. Medicines which deliver innovative benefits—for example, which have a whole new mode of action—can lead to subsequent treatments, and we should have a method of qualitatively understanding where those innovations, even if they may not have dramatic incremental benefits, none the less give us long-term potential. We should reflect that in the price that we are prepared to pay.

Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, we should not apply a discount rate to quality-adjusted life years that is directly comparable with the discount rates that are applied to revenues over time. I think people's time preference for quality-adjusted life years is not so dramatically higher for gain now as opposed to gain in the future; there is a much greater degree of equivalence between health gain now and health gain that people will derive in future. That would certainly assist in promoting medicines that slow the progression of disease and help us to manage longer-term morbidity in our older population, which would be immensely helpful.

There is a whole range of such matters and there are many more one could talk about, but it is really important to distinguish between NICE’s job in undertaking a health technology assessment, which I think should be moved from the purely quantitative to the qualitative. It should include, for example, relying not only on randomised control trial data but understanding observational data and the data we receive from the use of the innovative medicines fund to see how well medicines work and what benefits and outcomes they can deliver—sometimes in relatively small populations for rare diseases—understanding that in practice and incorporating it in its assessment.

We need to support NICE in delivering what is regarded internationally, I hope, as a gold standard of health technology assessment. We need to understand that that is separate and distinct from the business of what price the NHS should pay and on what basis the industry and we, as payers for new medicines, should agree, understanding that our objective must always be to ensure that safe, effective and high-quality medicines are available to the NHS and patients.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, who asked some good questions. Indeed, many noble Lords have asked good questions about the functioning of a patient safety commissioner. All are agreed that we have come very far, very quickly, and the Minister and my noble friend Lady Cumberlege are to be congratulated on having brought this proposal from her excellent report to primary legislation so rapidly. Knowing how difficult it is, I commend the Minister and his team for securing collective agreement to such a significant policy innovation so rapidly, to the point that we can put it into the Bill on Report.

I want to make two points. First, as I know from the past, independence can be instrumental to the functioning of an organisation, but the NHS can, if one is not careful, see independence as something outside the system. It is somewhat discounted because of that. We must always think of the patient safety commissioner in two important respects. First, it should be not only independent but influential. A number of noble Lords have spoken about how that might best be achieved. That influence is terrifically important.

Secondly, patient safety is central across the NHS and is regarded as such. As the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, evidenced, we have come a long way with safety in the NHS—for example, in the reduction in healthcare-acquired infections. I was responsible for introducing never events and a range of other factors. Mainstreaming safety to become a central concern of commissioners and providers across the NHS has been a recurring feature of the work of this Government and their predecessors, and of my successors, Jeremy Hunt in particular.

I stress that that work on safety inside the NHS is clinically led and data-driven. The patient safety commissioner has a remit focused on hearing from, understanding and working with patients. That distinction is tremendously important and must be made clear to all those working across the health and care systems, from the outset. There is something new and distinctive about the patient safety commissioner, and it is not simply another accretion to the many organisations that those who work in the health system feel impede their lives. On the contrary, this is a representative of patients who, by virtue of that, attracts special attention from their point of view and brings a distinctive and unique voice into the NHS systems. I am pleased to have had this opportunity to say those few things and to support the government amendment in the name of the Minister.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. It is very good news that there is to be a patient safety commissioner. I congratulate everyone who has worked so hard to create this amendment, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. It is so good that the Government have listened. Patient safety is vital, especially now when the NHS is under so much stress and demand. Over the years, some tragic incidents could have been avoided if patients had been listened to and there had not been cover-ups.

The noble Baroness feels that the words

“so far as reasonably practicable”

should be removed. She may feel that they would weaken the amendment; is this the case? This is important, because patients need clear information about how they are to communicate with the patient commissioner, so that they trust the system.

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[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I support these amendments. It seems totally sensible to consolidate legislation so that it is not fragmented and some medicines do not get missed. Medicines and medical devices are vital to some people. We depend on many of our medicines and devices coming from abroad, so bringing legislation together for human and animal medicines will help prevent mistakes. We are an island and crossing the borders has already caused problems with filling in the forms. With much-needed medicines there should not be a risk of not receiving them.

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, who rightly emphasises the importance of accessible and understandable legislation in this area. There are two issues. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern said, there is the question of the sunset clause and the question of the preparation of consolidated legislation.

On Amendment 2 and a sunset clause, I believe that we should reserve the imposition of sunset clauses for legislation where we anticipate that those powers may not be needed in future. This is not the case with this legislation. With the end of the transition period we require our own domestic legislation for medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices, so these regulations and these powers will be required.

The points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, quite legitimately, about the framework—the rather skeletal nature of the Bill as introduced to this House—must be dealt with in other ways, and in the group led by Amendment 4, we have substantive changes which make it a framework rather than simply a skeleton, and give us greater assurance about how the powers are structured in the Bill. I hope that if she reflects on it the noble Baroness will realise that shutting down these powers three years after Royal Assent would be a very taxing imposition. It would probably mean that in less than a year and a half, Ministers would be thinking about the reintroduction of legislation. We would risk the powers in this Bill being shut down in order for a Bill very like it to be introduced in a couple of years’ time. I see no intrinsic purpose in that, so I cannot support Amendment 2.

I do however want to specifically refer to the other issue of consolidation and Amendments 26, 39 and 63, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. There is a general proposition that people agree that, notwithstanding that additional regulations are going to have to be made in the weeks and months ahead using these powers, they will continue for the time being to be a complex mix of powers. Some will use this legislation, some will be in retained EU law and some will be in existing and other statutes and regulations.

What we want, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern quite rightly emphasised, is legislation in this important area that is understandable and accessible. These are not regulations for the benefit of lawyers; they are regulations for the benefit of practitioners, so they need to be very clear. The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, helpfully and kindly referred to the points I made in Committee about the role of the Law Commission. As I understand it, indeed, I think it is well to remember two things about this. First, Law Commission members are the experts in the process of codification and simplification. Consolidation of legislation is valuable, but it is even better for it to be codified and simplified so that the end result is far more accessible and understandable to practitioners.

So I would very much recommend that we proceed by asking the Government to put the areas of human medicines and medical device regulation, and perhaps veterinary medicine as well, into the work programme of the Law Commission. As I understand it, the 14th programme of work for the Law Commission will be the subject of discussion between the Government and the Law Commission up to the spring of 2022. The work programme of course will happen subsequently. So I do not think any rigid timetable should be imposed. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would not insist upon a three-year limit or his amendment for this purpose because I hope that, at the end of this process with the Law Commission, we will end up with something much better that is brought forward as a Law Commission Bill—which can have an expedited process of scrutiny and passage through both Houses. As a former Leader of the House of Commons, and therefore responsible for the Government’s legislative programme, I say that all the evidence tells me that, if a requirement to insert a Bill into the Government’s legislative programme can be avoided, it should be.

We have been there with a Law Commission Bill on the regulation of clinical professions and professions allied to medicine, which is still waiting for legislation, because it included not only codification and simplification but substantive changes to the policy—so I am afraid that it is still waiting. So let us not go down that route; let us do the very sensible thing rightly initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, which is call for consolidation, making sure that it is not about changing policy but about making the legislation work effectively for the benefit of the various practitioners and those who depend on them. And let us work through the Law Commission. I hope that, if the Minister were to tell the House that he and the Government were willing to proceed in that direction, without a timetable in place, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would not press his amendment when the time comes.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend is on the Front Bench to see this Bill safely through. I share with colleagues an appreciation of how he and officials from the department have worked consensually, carefully and considerately to try to make the Bill as good as we can make it. I welcome the amendments in lieu; they point to a sensible way forward in relation to the consultation on the statutory scheme. I would ask that my noble friend is equally clear that, in the negotiations leading to any voluntary scheme, Ministers will have regard not only to their statutory duties, as we have discussed, but to these considerations reflected in this amendment. One purpose of the Bill is to make a voluntary and a statutory scheme entirely consonant, one with the other.

The only other point that I would make is that, of course, when one passes legislation it is about not just the law but the administration that follows and accompanies it. In that context, it is important that Ministers take these powers, but it is equally important that in the administration of those powers, not least in working with NHS England and NICE, they work in the same constructive fashion to see that the impact on the life sciences industry and the accessibility of the best available treatments for patients, at a price representing value for money, are integral to the purposes of the legislation. I hope that they will equally be part of the further action that the Government take with NHS England and NICE to ensure that, however they manage the budgetary impacts as they must, they do so in a way that has the interests of patients and the country at heart.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his hard work on the Bill and his helpfulness. I have one question. As this is a global matter, how can the Government assure us that the prices of drugs will come down?

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Lansley]

I understand that. There is a perfectly good argument for the benefits that are derived from incremental innovation. Not every innovation is a step change compared to what has gone before, so that is a perfectly valid point. One objective that we should arrive at, as I hope my own Amendment 10 will later reflect, is that the structure of value has to understand what those benefits might look like. New medicines will come through that are similar but are significantly better, for example in terms of compliance for patient populations, because they are administered differently. One might say, “Well, it’s a very similar drug”, but one has to look at what the overall benefit might be, which is part of the value.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, cost-effective medicines which work for patients are vital, but some orphan drugs will cost more. Why are there differences in the pricing of drugs in Scotland and England? Someone must be making a lot of money.