Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I am very glad to follow the noble Lord, who made another of the many very valuable contributions we have listened to already in this debate. I will try not to repeat some of the important points that have already been made, which we will have an opportunity to consider in Committee in detail.

From my point of view, it is an illustration of the nature of how competition has changed in our markets. I was on the Standing Committee in another place of the Competition Act 1998, on the Standing Committee of the Enterprise Act 2002, and the Standing Committee of the Communications Act 2003, many of which are aspects of the legislation that we will be amending in this. If we had understood then the extent to which digitisation and digital markets had led to concentration of market power in relatively few hands, we would have thought that the competition regime we were establishing would have intervened to stop it.

Of course, it has not. I will come back to this in a moment, but we look at the Furman review, reporting in I think 2018 that there had previously been 400 acquisitions of nascent tech companies without any effective intervention by competition authorities anywhere. Even today, we are looking back very recently at the Competition and Markets Authority’s intervention in Microsoft’s acquisition of Activision Blizzard, which the noble Lord, Lord Fox, rightly referenced and, I think, praised its actions. But, of course, it affects only a small part of Activision Blizzard’s market penetration. It may be important in the long run—cloud computing may grow significantly—but it is not that significant yet.

It is important for us to recall that we are dealing with very large tech companies that are essentially American. The FTC tried to stop it and failed. My noble friend Lord Tyrie—he is not in his place at the moment, but will no doubt read this—was absolutely right; it is not simply the legal framework we create for our competition authorities but the manner in which the competition authorities deploy those powers that is absolutely vital. Of course, there is the consequential question of whether those competition authorities are properly accountable, and not simply whether they are doing their job well but whether we support them to do their job well—that they feel confident that the political class, as it were, will back them up.

At the time, we would have thought that the ex post interventions would have been sufficient. In the last few years, we have now realised that it will require a combination of ex ante rules and ex post interventions, and the Bill reflects that. With others, I was quite hopeful that we would make faster progress on the introduction of legislation following the Furman review. We are now over four and a half years on from the publication of that, but credit goes to our present Prime Minister for pushing things forward since he came to office. In this respect, he is a contrast to his immediate predecessor, who one might have imagined was pro competition, but who did not actually proceed apace with pro-competition legislation. Be that as it may, the Prime Minister is doing what is right to be done.

From my point of view, there are clearly many benefits that will be derived if this legislation is effective in diminishing the opportunity for self-preferencing by large digital players. I did think—this was a very good point made by, not least, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and my noble friend Lord Vaizey—that we must ensure fair return to intellectual property. That is linked to making sure there is transparency and choice for consumers; the relationship between those two is really important.

I will be interested to see, as we proceed, the relationship between this legislation and the European Union’s. It is not a direct relationship, but we might do a bit of “compare and contrast”, not least in relation to definitions. The noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, was talking about that. The approaches are a little different, but some of the definitions, and how they are reached, will be really important. When we look at turnover, the number of consumers and users of digital technologies, the extent to which individual players or undertakings exercise power and control over those users’ access to digital markets, and indeed the extent to which they have control over business users of those markets, the definitions are already out there in the implementing regulations of the Digital Markets Act from the European Commission. So we ourselves should look very carefully at that.

I share, and will not repeat, the points that have been made very well, not least by my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston, about ensuring that we maintain the clarity of the appeals standard. As far as I understand it, a JR standard includes a test of proportionality. For it to be further added in the legislation in the way that is currently proposed—I think it is in Clause 46—runs the risk that the courts will say: “Well, it must have been added for a further reason, for an additional and distinct test other than we would have understood to be normal in JR”.

The same applies to the point made about indispensability. I suggest that my noble friend looks very hard at whether the countervailing benefits exemption serves any valuable purpose or opens a very dangerous door to long litigation. We know that some big companies such as Apple have $1 billion available for their legal costs in a year; we know that it is a cost of doing business; we know they have succeeded on several occasions in delaying interventions by other competition authorities for years through legal challenges. We have to be very aware that we do not create exactly that opportunity.

I will finish with a final point on killer acquisitions. The Bill includes a requirement for notification of mergers by undertakings with significant market status. However, the Furman review went on to give a recommendation that there needed to be a specific test of

“whether a merger is expected to be on balance beneficial or harmful, taking into account the scale of impacts as well as their likelihood”.

That test is not included in the merger regime in relation to these markets in the way that the Furman review recommended. I hope that, in the course of our scrutiny of the Bill, we might look at whether we should indeed come to look at that forward-looking review of mergers, taking into account that balance; giving, as a consequence of changing the legislative framework for merger control, an opportunity for competition authorities to intervene more regularly and effectively; and ensuring that there is more opportunity for entry into these competitive markets, because these markets cannot be expected to become as competitive as we wish and need them to be without real opportunities for market entry by new entrants.

Notwithstanding that, I very much support the Bill. I look forward to what I think will be a very non-partisan approach across the House to try to ensure that the Bill achieves the purposes which the Government clearly intend and Parliament intends that it should.

Electronic Trade Documents Act 2023

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for those comments and questions. This is a quite remarkable Act. In fact, it is the only Act of Parliament that I have read from beginning to end. It is only four pages long and 1,500 words; I recommend it for its brevity and its conciseness. It simply does one thing, which is to take the architecture of 300-plus years of mercantile trading which has been done in paper form and translate that into digital to have the same legal impact. The onus is now on the Department for Business and Trade to communicate this to our SMEs, as my noble friend indicated. To that end, we are using international trade advisers and the International Chamber of Commerce, and we have set up the Centre for Digital Trade and Innovation at Teesside University. A lot of work will now be done to raise awareness of this, which will be for the great benefit of our trade.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, in reading the Act, my noble friend will have realised that reliable systems for authenticating electric trade documents is one of the central operational issues. Will the Government therefore give their full support to the International Chamber of Commerce, which I am glad he mentioned, as it did so much good work in helping to bring this Act forward? Will they also try to put together assurance for what those reliable systems look like that will help traders to trade confidently?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. I can report that, as the Minister in this area, I have chaired a forum with the International Chamber of Commerce where we are at the forefront of this initiative. By the UK leading the way here, with G7 and others following through, this will become a standard mechanism of trade and will be followed by the new operating border and the single trade window. We will therefore be moving rapidly to 2025 and a situation where trade can be expedited across international markets to the great benefit of our economy.

Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The whole idea of the CPTPP deal is precisely to do with free trade and fair trade. That will be very closely monitored within the group. The benefit to our importers and exporters will be considerable, particularly around some of the rules of origin. We will now be in a position to accept goods coming in from these 11 countries, bring them into our supply chains and then export thereafter. The benefits are significant and, in the meantime, fair trade will be monitored, as it always would be.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the impact assessment may significantly understate the potential economic benefits, for two good reasons? First, there is increasingly a worldwide digital economy and CPTPP has world-leading digital provisions within the agreement. Secondly, we are predominantly a services economy and those services are likely to grow more rapidly in the member countries. Can he further confirm that we will be full members of CPTPP and therefore able to exercise a view, with others, on the membership of any other country, including China?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend and will take his last point first. Yes, we have just joined the club and the first thing you do when you join a club is not necessarily to comment on its existing or incoming members. We will get to that in due course, I am sure, but when we are fully ratified we will absolutely have a fair voice at the table on the membership. I thank him for raising digital and services because in my new job I am looking carefully at where and how our trade is conducted. There is an obsession with manufactured goods to the EU, but the fastest-growing part of our economy is digital services to non-EU countries. Our economy is moving rapidly to be two-thirds services versus one-third goods. Having a deal in this region, which has a very young and well-educated middle class, all fully digital, will provide a great opportunity to access this market, particularly for our SMEs.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly appreciate noble Lords’ comments. I think I was so keen to get this Bill through that I slightly jumped the gun. I apologise to those noble Lords who were waiting to speak. I greatly appreciate the personal comments towards my own enthusiasm. I have hugely enjoyed the process of working with so many noble Lords in the first of what I hope will be a series of very exciting, exhilarating and profitable trade deals for the whole of the UK.

I have always been very specific, as have the Government, that this is a journey. We are very keen to hear how we can engage better. It is absolutely in the interests of the Government and these trade deals that there is a broad consensus around their power and effect to elevate our economy to new heights; otherwise, we will not be able to broadcast the ramifications and specifics of the trade deals to the country and people will not take advantage of them. Personally, I am continuing to engage at all possible points.

I am delighted to answer a few of the questions. In terms of the committee resourcing, I will certainly take that away. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for raising that. The IAC under the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has done a very good job. A number of noble Lords have spoken to that today and during the debate. It is certainly worth making sure we have the resources in this House to ensure we are scrutinising according to the appropriate CRaG process.

The noble Lord touched on the consent issues. They have clearly been an important feature of the debates around these trade deals. It does not necessarily look like we have resolved them for future trade deals. However, as the noble Lord rightly said, these are reserved powers. If you consult your Walter Bagehot, as I did over the weekend, he makes it very clear and is absolutely right that the Executive should be making treaties and be given the freedom of rein to implement them across the entire United Kingdom.

Having said that, we have made huge efforts to consult and engage with the devolved nations. I personally made extra efforts, which I would not describe as effort at all but part of a necessary process of good governance and communication, to ensure that devolved nations felt that they had a way in to this process. It is absolutely confirmed that our negotiators spend a great deal of time with officials from all parts of the United Kingdom to make sure that their views are fed in. This reflects on the sort of trade we are trying to do in terms of the specific industries of these nations. We are one United Kingdom, and our power in negotiating global trade deals comes from that fact. It would be a great mistake to try to abrogate that for any reason. Having said that, consultation and communication are paramount to us, and I personally commit to them.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that the Bill is about incorporating into domestic legislation the procurement provisions and chapters of the treaty? Although treaty making may be a reserved power, the implementation of the procurement-related legislation reflects directly on devolved matters. That is why consent should have been provided by the devolved Administrations.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that comment. I do not believe that is necessarily the case, in the sense that this is a procurement Bill relating to a trade deal, so it is right that concurrent powers can be initiated. I believe that is the case. That is certainly how we have operated on the premise of this Bill.

We wanted to gain consent because that is good practice, but, as I say, we focused on consultation and communication, which has achieved the same goal. The whole point of this Bill and the trade deal it underpins is that it will lead to greater trade, more commerce and economic activity and greater wealth creation for the entire UK, which we should celebrate.

If I may come to a conclusion, I thank noble Lords for their extremely helpful scrutiny. I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, mentioned. It proves the power and point of this Chamber. Any of the body politic who discuss significant revision of the powers of this Chamber should think very carefully about the actions taken on this Bill. Through the scrutiny of this House and the participation of individual Members, we have been able to draft a more effective Bill and draft it correctly, for which I am extremely grateful. I am very excited about the opportunities that the Australia and New Zealand trade deal will give us, our citizens and this nation. With that, I beg to move.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

Minette Batters, the president of the NFU, finished her speech to the recent NFU conference with a number of issues that she wanted the Government to address, including committing to promoting domestic food production, putting farmers and growers at the heart of our trade policy, guaranteeing our food security and backing British farmers and British food. It is time for the Government to do just this and add these amendments to the Bill to show that they do indeed support British farmers.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I will intervene briefly. We had a substantial debate in Committee on precisely these issues and I will not repeat the remarks I made then. I remind the House that my sister-in-law is a sheep and beef farmer in north Wales.

For these purposes, I draw attention to the fact that each of these amendments refers to the impact of the procurement chapters—on industry in Amendment 1, on farmers in Amendment 3, and so on. This allows the amendments to come within the Bill’s scope, because the Bill is about only the procurement chapters of the two trade agreements. But because the amendments are within scope and relate only to the procurement chapters, they essentially are pointless, since they do not allow for an impact assessment of the impact on farming; as far as I can tell, the procurement chapters do not impact on farming.

I looked at those chapters; I was a member of the International Agreements Committee, which looked carefully at these two agreements and reported to the House on them. Where New Zealand is concerned, the benefit of the procurement chapter in the short run is modest and principally relates to housing and access to procurement of national parks in New Zealand. Where Australia is concerned, the agreement essentially enables us to access procurements at a sub-federal level, but given the thresholds I am unaware of any likelihood of any significant impact on UK agricultural exports to Australia or vice versa, since these are not necessarily public procurements. The question is whether farmers and agricultural produce from Australia and New Zealand have access to the UK market more generally. All these amendments are pointless in this context since they relate only to the procurement chapters.

I hope we get on with this. When we last spoke, I said that I hoped we might have completed the passage of the Bill by early March. The whole point of the Bill is to enable these chapters to be brought into our domestic legislation and to allow the free trade agreements to be ratified and brought fully into force. I had hoped that we would have done it earlier than this, but thus far we have not.

I have one point on impact assessments, since the purpose is to try to get impact assessments. I still do not understand why those who are asking for these assessments to be made have not recognised that the Trade and Agriculture Commission produced reports last year on each of these free trade agreements. The International Agreements Committee and the International Trade Committee in the other place had commitments from Ministers that there would be a monitoring report every two years and a comprehensive evaluation of the free trade agreement after five years. That seems a perfectly reasonable proposition, so I cannot see that these amendments have either procedural or substantial merit.

--- Later in debate ---

The Government’s rhetoric on some of these agreements is not matched by reality when we know what the direct impact will be. Even at this late stage, therefore, I hope that the Minister will be able to offer some reassurance to our sector.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Going back for a moment to the point the noble Lord made earlier about the sale of food to public bodies and these procurement chapters, does he recognise that the purchase of food locally by schools, hospitals and the like will almost certainly not be, as I judge it, within the definition of covered procurement and not above the threshold; and, therefore, the procurement chapters, in so far as they extend procurement opportunities to Australia and New Zealand providers under this Bill—and under the Procurement Bill—really would not be relevant to that local provision of food?

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord; he knows I respect his work on this area very much. I would like the Minister to confirm that that will be the case, because I am not convinced. I see the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, in her place. She was kind enough to have a meeting with me about it. I am not yet convinced, because of the elements within the Procurement Bill which will require there to be no discrimination for any of the treaty countries for public procurement in this country, that what he is arguing for, which is effectively a carve-out, will in fact be the case. My understanding is that under the Procurement Bill, we are unable to discriminate against any of the treaty suppliers. I am not sure that a public body in this country would be able to discriminate. I hope the Minister will be able to clarify that point.

The reason this is relevant and why I quoted the then candidate for leader of the Conservative Party’s commitment to 50% of public procurement in this country being local is that I do not know how that squares with what will be the legal requirement under the Procurement Bill that we are then unable to discriminate against Australian and New Zealand produce which will enter the market. I do not know how that squares.

I am simply asking the questions, because we have not had more meat on the bone, if that is not too inappropriate an analogy, about what has been published as a government commitment and is in the Procurement Bill. If the noble Lord has any other answers, I am happy for him to intervene on me. I do not know how he knows how this might be squared. I do not at this moment. That is why part of our agriculture sector is also questioning how these two commitments will come together. The different sequencing of this Bill and the Procurement Bill is relevant. Because it also sets the precedent for Canada and Mexico, with new produce coming in, and if these are gateway agreements for CPTPP, we are looking at potential competition with all CPTPP members for public procurement of produce. If you are a public body in the UK looking at cost-effective procurement of food for schools or hospitals and you are unable under the Procurement Bill to discriminate against Australian or New Zealand produce or that from any CPTPP country and state that there is local producing, similarly, I do not know that it is matched.

I hope that, at this late stage, the Minister can offer some reassurance. I hope that he is able to explain how these commitments to 50% of procurement can be matched, as well as give further reassurances, specifically on the impact on tenant farmers and biodiversity. There are genuine concerns here, I do not think they will go away and we need to offer that reassurance to these sectors, which are so vital to our rural economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate the noble Lord’s comments and was about to come on to that when I said “conclusion”. Sadly, my conclusions can run to several topics, the noble Lord’s being one of them.

It is correct that the procurement legislation prohibits a nationalist tilt towards procurement, which is what we want. When it comes to government procurement, we want the highest quality products at the lowest possible prices, and I would like to think that they will be British products. It will reassure this House to know that 81% of all beef sold in this country is under British brand labels. Only 19% international beef is sold in this country in the first place. The assumption is that you are already looking at a very high level of local procurement. A 50% threshold would be logical for something such as beef, which already fits into that.

There is a further question and further investigation regarding whether procurement can be assessed in terms of other relevant factors. I am happy to have a further debate about that in general. It can apply to a wide range of concepts. It could even apply to how energy is sourced and supplied. There is always work defining what concepts such as sustainability or relevance to the environment could be in terms of transportation distances and so on. They are discussions to have. I have been having discussions in other areas, for reasons not linked to these trade discussions, on whether these factors can be brought to bear in procurement. We are very wary of introducing anything other than straightforward procurement rules, but I assure the noble Lord that—as with beef, where 81% is already UK beef—it would seem logical that a very high proportion of produce is sourced locally.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

At the risk of delaying us on this point, the access that is given through these procurement chapters and for treaty state suppliers under the Procurement Bill is to cover procurement, which means procurements larger than the threshold amounts set out in the schedule to the Procurement Bill. For example, for local food production for a set of schools, this would have to be a procurement over £213,000. In truth, the issue is not whether there is an Australian company that is likely to bid for such a procurement, because these procurements will be smaller than that. It is whether beef from Australia is in this country and in circulation in their market which might then be used by local suppliers—but then they are a local supplier to the school.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I have appreciated my noble friend’s extremely positive interventions and applaud wholeheartedly his phrase, “Let’s get on with it.” He has also been extremely helpful in pointing out the specifics of the Bill and the difficulty of attaching these sorts of amendments to it, although I am very sympathetic to the overall philosophy of the desire for proper impact assessments, which we have had and agree to wholeheartedly in terms of the two-year and the five-year monitoring report. I stress again that this treaty does not create a precedent. However, it does create a model. I am very impressed and support wholeheartedly the flexibility of this agreement because it will allow us and allow noble Lords to call Ministers to account on a constant and rolling basis concerning the effectiveness of these trade treaties.

I believe that I have covered most of the points raised. I am very happy to continue a dialogue around these and any other measures that may not have been covered on this important piece of legislation. We believe, and I believe passionately, that this trade Bill is a good thing for this country. It will be of huge benefit to our citizens and our consumers. It will give us enormous additional security and allow us to have a closer relationship with two nations that have been, since their founding, sister nations of this country.

I am continually being asked by the representatives of Australia and New Zealand when this treaty will come into force because, as soon as it does, and only then, their businesses and citizens, and ours, will be able to take advantage of it. I call on this House to support the Government in this mission. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, to withdraw his amendment, and for the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, not to move theirs.