Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Laming and Lord Peston

Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, I have no wish to comment on the amendment that has led us to be in this situation but I am sure that I am not alone in regretting the fact that we are. When the House finds itself in a dispute of this kind there is no doubt that it affects detrimentally the efficiency of the House. It is clear from last Wednesday’s discussion and from what we have already heard today that this matter will not be resolved on the Floor of the House. It will have to be resolved through discussions, and possibly through discussions some distance from the House.

I urge the House on all sides to allow these discussions to take place and let us get back to discussing this important Bill as quickly as possible and get on with the proper procedures in a self-regulated House. I hope that the Leader of the House will assure us that it will be possible for us to get ahead with these discussions as quickly as possible.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, if a Back-Bencher may be allowed to speak, I say in terms to the noble Lord the Leader that what he said will not do in any circumstances whatever. We are in a great mess and the real point is how we get out of the mess with honour. I say “with honour” and noble Lords will have noticed that I used the word “we”, even though I personally have not been involved in any of this. However, we all have to regard ourselves as having that as our duty.

There is a very good way of getting out of this. I say to the noble Lord that he ought to appreciate that the amendment accepts the fundamental principles of the Bill the Government are placing before us. He does not seem to have noticed that, but it does; it merely postpones one aspect of what happens. We could get out of this with honour through the Government accepting the amendment. All they have to do is say yes—that is all they have to do—and that is their honour; and those moving the amendment will come away with a degree of honour in that they have got their way.

The matter should not involve us in fundamental discussions about the role of the clerks of Parliament and our attitude towards them or anything like that. It is important that we should get back to discussing the thing that we are good at, which is legislation, and a great deal of legislation is waiting to be discussed. If the Leader of the House persists in the technicalities of his answer, he will keep this mess going endlessly. He may feel that he would like to lose all his legislation but, as I favour quite a large chunk of it, I wish that would not happen.

May we ask the noble Lord to go away, think again —rather than him telling us to go away and think again—come back and say yes to the amendment? Indeed, he would also save the coalition, which he may like to consider. This is not a party-political matter—

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Free Trade Agreement) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Laming and Lord Peston

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

I think I am right in saying that we are still a self-governing House and therefore that what my noble friend has asked the Leader of the House to do is a perfectly reasonable request. However, the Leader of the House has shown no sign that he intends to respond to that request. I sit on the Joint Committee on Security. This matter is not being driven by the security of this House but by the other place. There is no pressure for this from this House whatever. The Leader of the House has been asked to find some space so that colleagues can at least express their opinions. This is all he is being asked to do. The people involved in this think this is a done deal and have no intention of backing off no matter what the experiment shows. It is therefore vital that the Leader of the House should tell us that he will find space early next week so that we can all express our opinions.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, as a member of two committees that were involved in making this decision for this experimental time, I was not aware of any pressure coming from any outside source. The decision was taken sincerely and clearly within this House by the membership of this House. Should it be thought sensible, I am very happy to review the matter, but let us learn from the experience and see whether we can approach this in a spirit that is intended to make it as constructive and as safe as possible.