House Committee: First Report

Debate between Lord Laming and Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale

Thursday 14th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Laming)]

My Lords, this report recommends that access privileges may be withdrawn from a retired Member by the House Committee or a successor senior domestic committee. Colleagues will recall that the House has previously agreed that Members who lose their membership as a result of non-attendance or a sentence of imprisonment for more than a year should not have access privileges. Likewise, any Member who is expelled under the House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) Act 2015 will not have access privileges. Agreeing this report would mean that the House Committee could decide, on a case-by-case basis, whether a retired Member should have access privileges rescinded. I beg to move.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, the past week has shown how important transparency and dealing with any perception that there are different rules for different people in society are for rebuilding trust in public life. Earlier this year, your Lordships’ House discussed the fourth report of the Committee for Privileges and Conduct. A key paragraph in that report stated that the strongest sanctions—expulsion, suspension and denial of access to House facilities or financial support—would be unavailable should someone who was being investigated continue to be investigated following their retirement from the House. The report before us today from the House Committee makes it clear that it is possible for retired Members to retain their parliamentary pass, to sit on the steps of the Throne and to use the Library and certain catering facilities and therefore to have access to facilities that could be withdrawn should an investigation be continued following a retirement.

I would like to ask the Chairman of Committees three questions. First, does he believe that it would be possible at some point in the future to revisit the previous decision, given that it will now be possible to have a sanction against retired Members? Secondly, will the House Committee minute discussions where it has been proposed that the access privileges be withdrawn but the House Committee decides not to withdraw those privileges? The report mentions at the moment only that there will be a minute of any decision to withdraw the privileges. Thirdly, will there be a public record of those who have retired from the House but who have had their privileges withdrawn?

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McConnell. Noble Lords will know that colleagues in this House who decide that they want to retire, whatever the circumstances, do not make a request: they simply give notice to the House. Therefore it is clear that no sanctions in future could be used in respect of them. It is therefore absolutely right that, for all who have the honour to serve in this House and are given access privileges when they retire from it, the House should have the powers, should they be needed, to withdraw those privileges; I hope they will not be needed very often, if ever. Certainly if a proposition of this kind in respect of an individual comes before the House Committee, it will be reflected in the minutes. The minutes of the committee are readily available and on the internet, so the deliberations and the outcome will be communicated more widely.

Privileges and Conduct Committee

Debate between Lord Laming and Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale

Thursday 25th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, I am deeply concerned by the recommendation in paragraph 7 and the explanation given for that recommendation. It seems to me that this would be a very strong incentive for Members to avoid investigation by simply retiring from your Lordships’ House. The committee should have considered instead—it will be interesting to see whether it has—either a procedure which would have introduced potential sanctions on former Members who were found to have been engaged in fraudulent or other activities, or suspension of any retirement or any right to retirement for those under investigation. I think that any member of the public reading this document would be astonished that we give people a “get out of jail free” card simply because it is more convenient for us to reduce the size of the House than to maintain the standards that we set.

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the opportunity to respond to these questions and will do my best. The first question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was about where this came from. It came from within the committee. The committee has been extremely exercised about a number of what are perceived to be gaps or misunderstandings in the current arrangements.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, Members’ interests have to be declared other than at Question Time. It is not sufficient on other occasions simply to refer gaily to them. The noble Lord raises an interesting point, and it illustrates one of the committee’s concerns: if we try to specify what is on one side of the line and what is on the other, we get into difficulty because everyone’s circumstances are different and the subject matter is different. The report says that there is no guidance that will weaken our honour in these matters other than advising that we must ensure that our personal interests do not conflict with our public duties in this House. We have a duty to uphold that and, frankly, to be subject to scrutiny should there be questions about that in the future. Most noble Lords will recognise that in many ways this strengthens our position because it makes all of us have to fulfil our duties in this place.

The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, made a point about suspension, I think, and the difference when someone is on leave of absence.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

My point was not so much about the difference in approach as about the specific approach recommended in paragraph 7. In the justification, it is explained that Members will not be investigated if they choose to retire from the House, allowing everybody in your Lordships’ House a “get out of jail free” card should they be subject to investigation.

[The Chairman of Committees]

That is absolutely right. I am very grateful for the question because further thought is being given to that precise point and I hope that it will be possible to produce a report on that matter in the very near future.