Procedure of the House

Lord Laming Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords, I would like to give some small advice, if I may, to my noble friend the Leader of the House. It is: beware of what you wish for. It is by the natural order of things that one day, unless the abolition of the House of Lords Bill goes through in the form in which we understand it will be put to this House, he may be the Leader of the Opposition. He would then very much regret some of the proposals which are now being foisted upon us.

I agree with all that my noble friends Lord Cormack and Lord Crickhowell and the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, have said. A lot of this mischief has arisen not just because of the passion for legislation of all Governments these days. Many years ago, as a Back-Bencher, I introduced a Private Member’s Bill—which, surprisingly, did not get anywhere—called the Limitation of Legislation Bill, which proposed that, from the date of enactment, there should be no increase in the total number of words on the statute book. That is, before you put new words on you would have to find a few to take off as well. I think that we would have been better governed had that Bill been enacted.

However, that has all been worsened by another of the dreadful fads at the other end of this corridor, called “family-friendly hours”. Because we no longer have Committees going on down there into the small hours of the morning, we get more legislation timetabled in some fashion or another, which means that far more of it comes here having been inadequately discussed or not discussed at all. So their family-friendly hours become our distinctly unfriendly hours. They then lead to a very unfriendly proposal of the kind we are facing today.

The points have been well made. I do not think it is necessary for me to take up your Lordships’ time by repeating them. However, since the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—although it has not yet been moved—I wonder if I might do so too? There may not have been abuse—as some would call it—of the Written Question, but it has at times been pushed a bit far in its volume if not its quality. However, I must say to my noble friend the Leader of the House that I recently tabled a Written Question asking whether, when he had said that it was the Government’s policy that the number of seats in this House should be allocated to parties predominantly—in fact, he did not even say predominantly—by reference to the number of votes cast in the most recent general election, he meant that the Government were going to bring forward proposals for the introduction into this House of an appropriate number of Members of the British National Party, UKIP, the Greens and other minority parties. I received a reply from him which told me that the nomination of Members for this House was blah, blah, blah. It did not answer the Question. So I put down exactly the same Question again. There were two Questions from me. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, put down a similar Question and she, like me, got exactly the same non-answer again. I scored an unnecessary Question because I did not get an answer. I regret to say that that is happening increasingly frequently these days, so one devises the same Question again or the same Question is even accepted again literally word for word by the Table Office.

I cannot guarantee to my noble friend that I might not go along to the Table Office and put the Question down for the third time to make my point. If we want to get fewer Written Questions, we might try much harder to get replies which relate to the Question, not to what the Minister might wish that the Question had been.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, I have never felt so lonely for such a long time. I voted for this report in committee and I will vote for it again today. The noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, has also indicated how incompetent I am that I cannot get a letter to all Members of the Cross-Bench group. We all—well, a large proportion of the House—supported the Leader’s Group, but when it comes to implementing its recommendations the debate demonstrates how difficult it is to get agreement across your Lordships' House. It may be that I am too innocent to be allowed out, but I have tried to address the issue before the House and not be dragged into other, wider issues. Perhaps that is a failure on my part.

Having considered the report of the Leader’s Group on these matters in recommendations 9, 20 and 22, it seemed to me that the committee had addressed the issues with great care and concern. I agree strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, on one point: this House needs to preserve as much flexibility as possible for a self-regulating House. I regret to say that I cannot support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, because it states that all Bills should go to Grand Committee except in exceptional situations or when they are very controversial. If we think about this Session, there is not one Bill that could have been described as anything other than controversial. The amendment of the noble Baroness is altogether too restrictive for a self-regulatory House.

It is very important that this House takes forward the need to change in a way that enables us to manage the business as effectively as possible. I have formed a high regard for the usual channels and the way in which they try to deal with the business of this House. I believe that the usual channels can be relied on to reach sensible decisions which will command the confidence of the House. The recommendations are for a trial period. We have the opportunity to rehearse them in due course and we can learn from experience.

On Written Answers, the point was made about the expense that has been accrued by some noble Lords. Of course we want noble Lords to fulfil their responsibilities within the House, but that has to be balanced against the proper use of public finance, particularly at this time. I commend the recommendations relating to both Committees and Written Answers.

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, if we start sending more things to Committees off the Floor of the House, we will soon discover that variant of Parkinson’s Law: talk expands to fill the time provided.

I would far prefer us to go back to what we used to do not that many years ago, which was to vote in Committee on the principle of amendments—even if they were defective, we looked at the principle. At Report, we tidied them up, which took much less time. That is why debates on Report are much more focused and we are not allowed to do the to and froing. Third Reading was purely confined to sorting out the typos, the essential little mistakes, not dealing with anything of principle. If we started to go back to that system, with voting in Committee, we would have far more abbreviated proceedings later on. All we are doing is talking it through in Committee and again at Report.

We have to use that as a brake on the deluge of legislation that is coming on us these days. If we give more time for talking, we will just get more to talk about.

Her Majesty The Queen’s Diamond Jubilee

Lord Laming Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, the House will know that members of the Cross-Bench group seldom, if ever, speak with one voice. Indeed, they often remind me of their individual independence. However, today is different, because for once, I am in no doubt that each member of the Cross-Bench group is delighted to be associated— in every respect—with the tributes already paid and with the Motion of an humble Address. The citizens of this country, and indeed people throughout the Commonwealth, are most fortunate in having such a remarkable woman as our head of state and head of the Commonwealth. Her Majesty the Queen is rightly held in great affection and she has our deep gratitude, always, for the immense workload she carries on behalf of us all.

The members of the Cross-Bench group bring to this House a wide range of experience and expertise. They have spent many years in the key public services, in industry, the law, the arts, commerce and of course in leading charities. However, in addition, the group includes former Lord Chamberlains and Private Secretaries to Her Majesty. Those officeholders have, more than most, an even clearer appreciation of the volume of work and the range of activities undertaken by the Queen and members of her family, week in and week out—in her case for more than 60 years.

Her Majesty’s workload includes frequent visits to cities and counties throughout the United Kingdom. Many Members of this House will have had direct experience of witnessing the excitement and regard generated during these events. Her Majesty always takes the opportunity to recognise the contributions to society made by individuals and organisations. This is deeply appreciated and of enduring benefit. For example, the media reports of the recent Diamond Jubilee royal visit to Leicester indicate, so clearly, the very great affection that is felt for Her Majesty and her family.

The House will know that the Queen is the patron of more than 600 charities. Her husband, of course, founded the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award scheme for young people and the Prince of Wales’s Prince’s Trust gives purpose and promotes self-respect to hundreds of disadvantaged young people each year. This is just a mere snapshot of the many activities in support of charities undertaken by members of the Royal Family. We must neither underestimate, nor take for granted, the work and importance of the Queen and her family in enriching the quality of life in our society.

On behalf of the Cross-Bench group, I join the rest of the House in supporting this Motion and wishing Her Majesty a splendid Diamond Jubilee. It is a great honour to make this contribution to the remarkable achievements of the Queen and, together, we offer Her Majesty our warmest congratulations and very good wishes.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Free Trade Agreement) Order 2011

Lord Laming Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

I think I am right in saying that we are still a self-governing House and therefore that what my noble friend has asked the Leader of the House to do is a perfectly reasonable request. However, the Leader of the House has shown no sign that he intends to respond to that request. I sit on the Joint Committee on Security. This matter is not being driven by the security of this House but by the other place. There is no pressure for this from this House whatever. The Leader of the House has been asked to find some space so that colleagues can at least express their opinions. This is all he is being asked to do. The people involved in this think this is a done deal and have no intention of backing off no matter what the experiment shows. It is therefore vital that the Leader of the House should tell us that he will find space early next week so that we can all express our opinions.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, as a member of two committees that were involved in making this decision for this experimental time, I was not aware of any pressure coming from any outside source. The decision was taken sincerely and clearly within this House by the membership of this House. Should it be thought sensible, I am very happy to review the matter, but let us learn from the experience and see whether we can approach this in a spirit that is intended to make it as constructive and as safe as possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may slot into the minds of Members what could be a long-term solution. It is for us to reclaim our underground car park across the road, which we own, and build a tunnel which links the House to that car park.

Lord Speaker: Baroness Hayman

Lord Laming Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, it is my pleasure to pay tribute from these Benches to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has already referred to the fact that it was me, from the Benches below the Gangway when she was appointed as Lord Speaker, who referred to her as a cross between the Singing Nun and Mary Poppins. She got hold of me immediately afterwards and with some indignation pointed out that she could not sing and that she was certainly no nun. So I shall take this opportunity to withdraw that comparison. However, I refer noble Lords to the Wikipedia entry on Mary Poppins as portrayed by Julie Andrews. There it says that Mary Poppins is:

“‘Practically perfect in every way’. She is not only firm in her use of authority, but kind and gentle as well”.

I rest my case. There could be no more accurate description of our retiring Lord Speaker.

I echo the tributes paid by the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition, particularly when the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, spoke of her behind-the-scenes skills in managing the House through very difficult times. She has trod with delicacy in establishing the authority of the Lord Speaker inside this Chamber while being sensitive and aware of the way the House wishes to safeguard its self-regulation. As has been mentioned, she pioneered the outreach programme to promote better understanding of our work among young people and the voluntary sector, and she initiated a meeting of the Youth Parliament in this House when the other place hesitated and refused to do so. It has now followed our example. And as the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said, she has been a first class ambassador for this House abroad and has represented it on major occasions with just the right words and the right sentiments, whether for monarchs, popes or presidents. The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, knows that she has a hard act to follow, but she should also know that she has both our confidence and our affection in setting out on that road.

As for the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, it is never easy to step down from high office and go to the Back Benches. But my prediction is that she will mellow just as the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, has mellowed. In fact, it is my prediction that she will mellow exactly as the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, has mellowed. We wish her well on the Cross Benches.

It is always difficult to sum up a tribute with a single, simple word, but I will try, and I wish Hansard luck with it. I think that the noble Baroness has been supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, I am so very pleased that my first formal task as Convenor on behalf of the Cross-Bench group is to contribute to the richly deserved tributes being made to our former Lord Speaker. This is a special pleasure for me, not least because I first met the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, when as far back as 1974 she was elected to be my local Member of Parliament. Her election attracted a great deal of attention, first, because she was a woman, and secondly, because she was so young. Such factors were considered to be remarkable, and that of itself is very noteworthy. But for me, then a chief officer in the local authority, from the outset she demonstrated in abundance a much more significant, third feature. That was her evident energy, drive and unyielding commitment, especially to the well-being of the least fortunate and least able of her constituents.

Later, the noble Baroness was to experience the reality of many a political career, which is that of a marked political swing in an area. Once again, it was demonstrated that being a hard-working and enthusiastic representative of the people does not guarantee re-election.

However, when in 1979 the noble Baroness lost her seat in the other place she did not seek a new life in rich pastures. Instead, she decided to build on her earlier career in Camden social services and with the National Council for One Parent Families. This time, she also tackled with vigour a range of very challenging posts in the National Health Service and with local and national charities. So when in 1996 she was appointed to your Lordships’ House, she had accumulated a wealth of experience both in the public services and the voluntary sector. It was, therefore, hardly surprising that very soon she was appointed a Minister in three different departments of government. But, of course, her work in government that many of us remember best was the time she spent in the Department of Health.

As has been noted, in 2006 the noble Baroness became the first Lord Speaker in your Lordships’ House. As has been said so ably, there can be no doubting that, during the past five years, she has fulfilled her responsibilities with great distinction. All of us have had the benefit of her vast experience and personal qualities.

More than that, the noble Baroness has been a great ambassador and a splendid advocate for this House, both nationally and internationally. To highlight just one example, many of us have had the pleasure of contributing to the Peers in Schools programme. No matter how generous the concluding vote of thanks, I suspect that, on leaving a school, most of us have hoped just that the students have gained as much as us from the visit. The Lord Speaker’s lectures and the involvement of young people have added greatly to the standing of this House.

Looking back over the past five years, each of us will have our own special memories of the work of the former Lord Speaker. For my part, I hold dear the occasion when, on behalf of both Houses of Parliament, she thanked President Obama with such warmth, grace and evident sincerity. It was a moving conclusion to a memorable event.

We all look forward to the time when we welcome back the noble Baroness to these Benches. Then, the whole House will once again benefit from her vast experience and great ability. What is for sure is that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has our warmest thanks for all she has done for us during her time as Lord Speaker.

I feel sure that our former Lord Speaker would approve of me adding a brief word of welcome to her successor. It goes without saying that we in the Cross-Bench group take particular pleasure in the election of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza. She must be the first Cross-Bencher to hold this post either in its previous or in its current form. We are delighted. It gives us huge pleasure in her achievement and we wish her great success. However, perhaps I may take the opportunity to reassure the House that trying to step into the footsteps of the noble Baroness once is challenge enough—I have no ambition to try to do it a second time.

[The Lord Bishop of Bristol]

My Lords, bishops are used to bringing up the rear in formal processions. Today, I find myself bringing up the rear of a procession of worthy tributes to the work and character of the outgoing Lord Speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. In consequence, I shall seek to avoid, as far as is seemly, hesitation, repetition or deviation.

It is with great pleasure and humility that I add my appreciation on behalf of these Benches to that expressed by others for the Lord Speaker as she retires from this role in your Lordships' House. On these Benches, we have been extremely grateful for all that she has so graciously and ably offered to the life of your Lordships’ House. Those charged with responsibility for convening the Lords spiritual have in particular been grateful for the Lord Speaker’s warmth, help and support. The present Convenor, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, is deeply apologetic that he cannot be here today.

Our outgoing Lord Speaker has been an excellent ambassador for your Lordships’ House. In her work promoting overseas all that is good about your Lordships’ House, she has delivered with great imagination and diligence. Travel seems an increasingly wearisome business, yet the Lord Speaker showed herself willing to go wherever and whenever she could to promote your Lordships’ House. Her efforts in seeking to inspire and inform young people in understanding our work have found her again to be an exemplar. This has been a passion if not a healthy obsession. We are particularly grateful for her diligence in this.

At all times, the Lord Speaker has attempted to inform and communicate with your Lordships on matters of concern and interest. In this, the Lord Speaker has again achieved a high standard. Her hosting of a series of seminars, including recently one on the interaction between religion and politics, is but one example of her willingness to engage with issues of significance by using her office to create a thoughtful and impressive space for the airing of pressing current issues. As has been said, she will be the proverbial hard act to follow. With your Lordships, we on these Benches look forward to welcoming and working with the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, in her newly elected role.

To conclude, on behalf of these Benches I am more than happy to add our heartfelt thanks and appreciation to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the former Lord Speaker, for her efforts on our behalf since she was elected in 2006. We wish her well and hope that, free from the responsibilities that she has so willingly and ably borne, she will enjoy her retirement from this particular role and, who knows, have a little extra time on her hands for family and friends—of whom she has many, not least in your Lordships’ House. We look forward to the noble Baroness’s continued contributions from the Benches of your Lordships’ House, from which I am certain that we will undoubtedly continue to benefit.

Public Disorder

Lord Laming Excerpts

Thursday 11th August 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating this Statement on a matter that must concern us all very deeply, as indeed it concerns the vast majority of our fellow citizens.

The awful events of this week in many respects diminish us all. At this time our hearts must go out especially to those fellow citizens who have lost so much because their homes have been burnt out or their businesses destroyed, or they have been injured or, terribly sadly and even worse, killed. Rioting is a grievous activity that strikes at the very heart of the well-being of society, but I am sure we all agree that that is entirely different from looting, theft and wanton destruction. I ask the noble Baroness the Minister to say, when she replies, whether she agrees that this is not the time, in the heat of these events, to rush to any conclusions. Rather, the priority must be to restore social order for all our citizens to enjoy, and then to frame the important questions that need to be properly addressed in due course.

Secondly, while no criticism of the police is implied, does the Minister agree that a detailed review must include a review of how the police and the Independent Police Complaints Commission initially responded to the death of Mr Duggan? Did the police appoint a family liaison officer? Did a senior officer of the IPCC immediately explain in detail to the family exactly how the inquiry would be conducted and the rights of the family secured? I raise these questions simply because, like many others, I wonder why the family felt it necessary to march to secure such basic information.

Thirdly, does the Minister also agree that low income is not of itself a primary cause of criminal behaviour? Indeed, does she share the admiration of most of us for the way in which most families on low incomes not only manage their lives with great skill but very often form the bedrock of the local community? That being so, does she think that this may be an appropriate time to examine whether the much valued individual human rights that we all enjoy and share are nevertheless properly balanced by a commitment to wider social responsibilities? Does she agree that while we must continue to strive to ensure that society works for the benefit of every citizen, the other side of the coin is that every citizen must seek to contribute to the good of society?

House of Lords: Working Practices

Lord Laming Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, as has been mentioned several times this evening, last week your Lordships spent two long days discussing the future of this House, as outlined in a document in which, to be frank, I could find little merit. In stark contrast, we have today before us a document which I believe is of great value and, at the outset, like other noble Lords, I offer my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, and the other members of the group. I believe we are indebted to them for producing such a helpful document. The report has the merit of being very well researched; it is clearly expressed and is both practical and timely. I mean it as a tribute to its authors when I say that it is a good read because it is very persuasive.

My Lords, this House has a long record of change and development. Those who doubt that will be confounded if they study the evidence in this report. But the report goes further by setting out a number of reasons why more change is necessary and, helpfully, providing guidance on the best way of achieving those changes. The report puts before us a range of very practical measures to secure greater efficiency and effectiveness in the way we conduct the business of the House. Many of the recommendations could be implemented very quickly, and I urge the House that we do just that.

Clearly, the main objective of our work is to hold the Executive to account—despite what Viscount Eccles just said—to scrutinise legislation and promote debate on key issues that confront our society. I have always been hugely impressed by the vast range of expertise and experience throughout the whole of your Lordships’ House so, without any hint of complacency, I believe that we are well placed to fulfil these functions. But the report sets out a numbers of ways in which we could do a great deal better and we have to take that seriously.

For example, I understand the frustration that is often expressed regarding Oral Questions, but in addition to the recommendations in the report we must also address aspects of our own behaviour, as has already been touched on this evening. The remedy to some of this frustration is in our own hands. Self-regulation depends to a large degree on self-discipline. It would be of enormous benefit both if it could be generally accepted that the opportunity to ask a Question is actually to put the Question rather than to introduce a mini debate and if Ministers would recognise that their sole task is to answer the Question rather than to outline the general policy of the Government. If that were to happen, our time would be put to much better use.

I do not tweet on Twitter, but I am attracted to the suggestions in the report about limiting the number of words because I am told that important matters can be conveyed in few words by means of Twitter. The frustration caused by long questions or tedious replies can sometimes provoke what might be called, by the standards of this House, unseemly behaviour. I hope that, in addressing these issues, we will attach considerable importance to retaining the courtesy which is a tradition in this House and which sometimes has been allowed to slip.

Regarding the scrutiny of legislation, it is clear that too often legislation comes to the House, not well considered in another place. It demands the time and energy of this House to address those matters more carefully and more thoroughly. At times it may be irksome to the Government, but it would be extremely helpful if we could follow the Companion more closely and ensure that Second Reading speeches are confined to Second Reading and do not follow through into every other aspect of Lords business.

It is important that we take these matters seriously and move forward in a positive way with the help of this document, and that we recognise that the contribution of Members of your Lordships’ House is not to be measured by column inches in Hansard. Everybody in this House is fairly bright—perhaps not me, but even I can generally follow the thrust of most of the points raised in your Lordships’ House.

I agree with the report very much indeed. I hope that it can be taken seriously and speedily implemented.

G8 and G20 Summits

Lord Laming Excerpts

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will support the warm tributes that the Leader of the House and others have paid to our brave military personnel. Does he accept that many of us welcome the Prime Minister’s decision to get our troops out of Afghanistan at the earliest practicable time? Does he also accept that, if that requires involving the Taliban in negotiations, that is a nettle that will need to be grasped?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Laming, for what he has just said. He reiterates the position extremely well and with a clear understanding of what the issues are. There is increasingly an appreciation and understanding that a violent and military-directed war in Afghanistan is not a winnable proposition for anybody, least of all for the people of Afghanistan themselves. All peace processes around the world have dealt with it by, slowly but surely, bringing all sides together. That will need to be the case in Afghanistan and is increasingly the thrust of our policy.