Brexit: Legal Position of Withdrawal Agreement

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 3rd December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I fear that to answer the first question would be to breach the relevant law officer convention, but with regard to the second, let me be clear: there is no inconsistency between any point made in the legal commentary and anything that might or might not have been said in government.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is a very good reason for the convention that advice from the Attorney-General can be kept confidential to the Government? Nobody who voted on that proposal for a contempt Motion has the slightest idea whether some of that advice might be advantageous to the people against whom—or with whom—we are negotiating. I do not know how many noble Lords have listened in the past two hours to the extraordinary exposition by the Attorney-General—I think, quite without precedent—in which he undertook to answer any question from anybody in the House, seeing himself as responsible not merely to the Government but to Parliament, to the Commons, in his particular position. He discharged it effectively, and nobody who voted in the original vote that the papers ought to be published had the slightest idea that that was how the Attorney-General would approach his responsibilities.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I thank my noble friend for his observations and entirely concur. I emphasise a point he touched on: we are engaged in continuing negotiations with the European Union to determine our future relationship. It would not be appropriate for us to disclose matters that would impact on the conduct of the negotiations, any more than we might expect the European Union to disclose to us the confidential legal advice that it may or may not have received in conducting those negotiations.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for making it clear that these are essentially probing amendments and I respond to them in that light. These amendments relate to the issuing, approval and modification of warrants under Parts 6 and 7 of the Bill.

Amendments 194J, 201B and 210B would remove from the Bill an important safeguard which requires that a bulk interception, acquisition or equipment interference warrant may be issued only if doing so is in the interest of national security. The Bill provides for a warrant under Part 6 to be issued where it is necessary on three statutory grounds: in the interests of national security; for the prevention and detection of serious crime; or in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom where those interests are also relevant to national security.

Clause 129(1)(b)(ii), Clause 146(1)(a)(ii) and Clause 164(1)(b)(ii), which these amendments seek to remove, ensure that one of those statutory grounds must always be national security. This is clearly an important safeguard which recognises the particular sensitivity of bulk powers and therefore limits their use to the most tightly drawn circumstances. In other words, the Bill says that a bulk warrant provided for in Part 6 of the Bill must have,

“in the interests of national security”,

as one of the statutory purposes to authorise collection. However, collection can also be authorised to prevent serious crime and to protect the economic well-being of the United Kingdom in addition to being authorised to protect national security.

The inclusion of the additional statutory grounds relating to serious crime and economic well-being remains vital. There will be circumstances where it is necessary and proportionate to select for examination data collected under a bulk warrant in order to, for example, prevent and detect serious crime, such as to detect and disrupt child sexual exploitation. However, the Bill ensures that the initial collection of data could be authorised only if doing so is necessary to protect national security, albeit that it may be necessary for one of the other two purposes that I have already described. In other words, there is a relationship between the statutory requirements for the bulk warrant and the operational purposes which will be specified in the same warrant application, some of which may relate to the prevention of serious crime or economic interest.

On that last point of economic interest, it has been asked how that can be distinguished from national security. In a sense, it is a matter of emphasis at the end of the day. The ISC looked at this in detail, and at the need to retain it as a statutory purpose in its own right. It took extensive evidence from the agencies and, indeed, from the Foreign Secretary. I believe that Dominic Grieve was the chair at that time. He made it clear during Report in the Commons that the ISC had been persuaded that there remained a need for safeguarding the UK’s economic well-being to continue to exist as a statutory purpose for the use of the investigatory powers in the Bill in their own right. Therefore, I accept that it is linked to national security but it is a matter of underlining the need to have in mind the cases in which economic well-being will be the prevailing factor.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I recall that with the noble Lord, Lord Beith, we went round this course a number of times in the ISC trying to work out where the economic well-being issue could be distinguished from national security. Will my noble and learned friend give a few illustrations now or at a later stage of the Bill to show exactly why this is the case? I think we were persuaded on this. My noble and learned friend said that the current ISC and the current chairman are persuaded. However, will he illustrate why they were persuaded?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

If I had those illustrations to hand, I would, of course, deliver them this very moment. I regret that I do not have them to hand. However, I will undertake to consider the illustrations that were given previously and write to the noble Lord. If it is necessary, I will elaborate on the examples already given by giving further examples. However, I regret that I am not in a position to cite those earlier examples.

I underline that the reference to national security in the context of the clauses to which I referred—that is, Clauses 129, 146 and 164—operates as an important safeguard. That is what has to be emphasised. In these circumstances I invite the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, not to press these amendments.

I turn to bulk personal datasets and health records and Amendment 223B. This amendment would limit the circumstances in which the intelligence agencies can retain and examine a bulk personal dataset which contains health records under a specific BPD warrant. The Bill already requires the Secretary of State and a judicial commissioner to consider whether the retention and examination of a bulk personal dataset is necessary and proportionate for certain defined operational purposes. Following consideration in the other place, the Bill was amended, limiting the test for granting a warrant for the retention and examination of a bulk personal dataset containing health records to cases where there are “exceptional and compelling” circumstances. These are already extremely high tests.

Amendment 223B would limit the Bill even further so that retention and examination is permitted only in exceptional and compelling circumstances related to national security. By their very nature, exceptional and compelling circumstances are very rare. Restricting the use of such datasets to circumstances where national security concerns are engaged would rule out their use for any other statutory purpose, including the prevention and detection of serious and organised crime. If we were to agree to this amendment, we would be signalling, in effect, that in no circumstances do we believe that it could ever be appropriate that such data should be used for serious and organised crime investigations even when the Secretary of State and a judicial commissioner consider this is necessary and proportionate and that there are exceptional and compelling circumstances. We do not consider that this is appropriate. It is long-standing government policy not to comment on intelligence matters. However, as the then Security Minister explained in the other place, in that specific instance only he was willing to confirm that the security and intelligence agencies did not hold a bulk personal dataset of medical records, which illustrates that there would need to be exceptional circumstances for an agency to do so.

However, the Minister and the Solicitor-General rightly emphasised that we would not want to rule out the possibility of there ever being such a scenario. They gave a hypothetical example in which a group of terrorists are involved in an explosion and sustain burns. Medical evidence about where they attended—the fact that they had attended a local A&E, for example—could be relevant to that particular operation and provide the only lead to find the individuals concerned. The same circumstances could arise if criminals were similarly injured in an explosion at, for example, an illegal drugs laboratory. This would not be a matter of national security but would relate to the prevention and detection of serious crime. I therefore emphasise that no Secretary of State or judicial commissioner, who would both have to approve a specific BPD warrant to retain medical records, would underestimate the seriousness of their duty in this regard. “Exceptional and compelling” is a high test to be met; restricting this further is not regarded as necessary. Therefore, again I invite the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment.