Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Strathclyde

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad): House of Lords
Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde (Con)]

My Lords, am I alone in finding this a most extraordinary debate? It is deeply disappointing given the eminence from which it comes. The noble Baroness, as Leader of the Opposition, is a leading light of the usual channels. She could have raised any of these issues—perhaps she did—during the course of discussion through the usual channels.

The great principle which underlies the work we do on legislation in this House is that we believe and understand that the Queen’s business should be carried. That means we scrutinise and revise legislation. The amendment—the Motion—says that there should be a full stop. We will do all the work in Committee, we have agreed the business on Second Reading but after Committee, a full stop. There is a theme here: a couple of weeks ago, we had the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, saying that we should all go on holiday. Now, the noble Baroness is asking us to stop work after Committee.

There is another practical aspect to this. For many years, I was a member of the usual channels. We did not always get it right, but we worked in the interests of the whole House—every aspect of us—to try to find the right time and the right stages to do various bits of business. This Motion drives a coach and horses through all that. For the noble Lord, who was formerly my noble friend, to pray in aid the kind of behaviour that we have seen in the House of Commons and say that what they are doing there, we should do here, is completely ridiculous and absurd. The noble Lord said that we should take over the running of all this. In this House, the Government have no majority. It proceeds only because we have the agreement of the whole House. We trust and ask the usual channels to do this.

Perhaps the second most disappointing thing which the noble Baroness said is that she will ask the opinion of the House and have a Division. If the business of the House will always be decided by a Division, then God help us. I really hope that she will consider, however important the great issues are, that they can be dealt with in the Bill by amendment in the usual way; they should not be decided like this.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, it was good to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and to be reminded of the days when everything worked swimmingly. I do not know if he was here on Second Reading, when the Government were perfectly honest and straightforward in admitting that there was a big lacuna in the Bill. They accepted that there was and said it would be filled in at a later stage. We were talking of a two-Bill scenario at that stage; we were also thinking of an implementation period.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay: we are now in a completely different scenario. The modesty of the Leader of the Opposition’s proposal is admirable. She is not saying that we should not proceed with the Committee stage, and she is right. We should not down tools. We should go on doing our job trying to improve this Bill. However, the lacuna is still there. We do not know what the machinery will be for legislative scrutiny of future trade negotiations.

EU Council

Debate between Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

No, my Lords, there was not a firm proposal that there should be a European army but there was an early discussion about a series of councils that will take place next year to discuss common defence and security policy. It is important for the Prime Minister to lay out his position as early as possible. After all, if he does not, that is how rumours start—such as the one propagated just now by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, who also gave me an opportunity to put the record straight.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, will the noble Lord revert to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, and his own exegesis of the sentence in the Council conclusions that says,

“the Council agreed a new voting system which means the Eurozone can not impose rules on the countries outside the Euro area”?

Does he agree that that sentence means that the Council agreed a new voting system for the EBA, not for the Council? Does he agree that that voting system depends on there being four non-members of the European single supervisory mechanism for its survival?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, the noble Lord has made an important clarification. I hope that nothing I have said has given the impression that I did not think that is what it meant—I am glad to have the noble Lord’s confirmation of that. It is absolutely right that those are the two locks. It is the first time that we have been able to get agreement that any changes require the agreement of a majority of those countries that are not in the eurozone.

European Council

Debate between Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend has a well earned reputation for finding these sorts of statistics that have passed so many others by, including me. He is right on the figure of 23 million small firms and 23 million unemployed. One each has an extra job, and that sweeps up unemployment. Of course, that is one of the reasons why, at last, many other European countries are joining us on deregulating and are accepting the case that what are called microenterprises—those that employ fewer than 10 people—are one of the basic engines for growth and employment. I am very grateful to my noble friend for pointing that out.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement, and I agree with him about the importance of deregulation. I think it was in 1988 that I first wrote in one of these post-European Council prime ministerial Statements the sentence on deregulation. For the first time, we got a specific commitment. I am a little cynical about these European Councils. Of course, I think it is a wonderful idea that they should have talked about growth and the single market, but if you read the conclusions as avidly as my noble friend Lord Williamson, you discover that there is a sort of shopping list containing all the proposals that anybody ever had, including all those the Commission has had. For example, when we agreed the conclusions we appear to have agreed that work should be carried forward on the financial transactions tax, which seems to me to be one of the silliest proposals on the table now. I cannot think why we do not say, “Let’s just stop it”, because we can. It is on the legal basis of unanimity, and we can say that we are not going to agree. I think the conclusions are interesting, and it is good that the right subjects are being discussed, but they are a little bit of a ragbag.

I want to ask the Leader a completely different question. It is not about why we did not sign up to the treaty of 25, although the Statement is possibly a little suggestio falsi eye on that, in that it points out that the obligations apply only to the eurozone countries but does not point out that the Poles, the Swedes and six other member states thought it worth being in the room, at least, and are not committed to the obligations. I want to ask about Kosovo. I am sure the Leader is a great expert on Kosovo. I am not, but I see that the Statement speaks of a,

“process which can lead to a new contract between the European Union and Kosovo”.

Have all member states of the European Union recognised Kosovo? If they have not yet recognised Kosovo, how will this process work? Why do those who have not yet recognised Kosovo resist the independence of Kosovo? Could it be because they do not like secession movements, for example, in their own countries? Is this a point that the noble Lord will draw to the attention of his countrymen and mine?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord always speaks here with the voice of experience and knowledge, not least as an author of EU conclusions. I think that he said, in this rather empty House, that he is just a little bit cynical about these conclusions. It is easy to become cynical when you read these conclusions and you see the same words and phrases coming up again. I shall resist the temptation to join the Prime Minister in saying that this is a new dawn. However, the Prime Minister is very keen that when the EU says it is going to do something, it should do so. That is why he has very much been at the vanguard of making the arguments that he has, and I know that he will hold the Commission to account over the months and years ahead. Incidentally, I agree with the noble Lord about being a little bit cynical; I agree with him about the financial transaction tax. We are doing well today.

What about Kosovo? The noble Lord made a point that will be endlessly discussed over the next few years vis-à-vis the situation within the United Kingdom. I have not got an answer as to whether all the countries of the EU have recognised Kosovo. At the moment we are seeking to encourage both Serbia and Kosovo to maintain their constructive approach to further dialogue. This is crucial to the EU futures of both Serbia and Kosovo, and to stability in the region and improving the lives of its people.

One thing that came out, of course, was that the General Affairs Council gave impetus to Kosovo’s EU future this week—but I do not think that was necessarily the point the noble Lord was making, which was infinitely more subtle and will require a little bit more homework from my point of view. However, I am sure that other parts of the EU seeking to secede from their mother countries will want to see not only what is developing in Kosovo but in other parts of the EU as well.

European Council

Debate between Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I wholly understand why my noble friend would ask for a debate; obviously this is an area of great interest. Perhaps I may suggest that the usual channels should meet, perhaps with representations from all parties and groups in this House, to see whether we can find a time. As the House knows, we will rise for Christmas next Wednesday. It might be a little bit difficult to find a suitable date before then, and in any case it might be better to meet again in January to discuss these issues. We had a very successful debate on 1 December but I am not averse to having a further one.

My noble friend also asked a question about the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying that he was planning for all eventualities. The reality of our decision not to join the euro means that, for some time now, the eurozone countries have developed and continue to develop their own arrangements. For the UK and other countries that have not joined the euro, that means being vigilant in protecting our national interests. That will remain the case, but it is nothing new.

We will continue to exert our influence on financial services legislation and on single market legislation more broadly. But I am sure that, for reasons which I am sure the House will understand, the Government do not comment on the detail of their contingency planning in order to ensure that we can best protect the interests of the whole economy, including the City.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, I congratulate the Leader on the ebullience of his response to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. Perhaps I may ask that he include a little more content in his answers to the questions that I have for him. First, will he confirm that since 1988, when at the initiative of Prime Minister Thatcher we secured qualified majority voting for financial services regulation legislation, the United Kingdom has never been outvoted on a financial services proposal in the Council of Ministers in Brussels? Secondly, will he confirm that the financial transaction tax is a complete red herring because, as a tax measure, it is on a unanimity legal base and if we do not agree with it, we can block it?

I have three questions on institutions. I listened with great interest to what the Leader said about the Government looking constructively at any institutional proposals. First, if the Government consider that tighter deficit control arrangements among eurozone countries could somehow create a threat to City interests—and I do understand the concern—would this threat not be best contained if the arrangements that the eurozone countries make were required not to undermine the single market, not to create barriers to trade between all member states and not to distort competition between them? He will recognise the language of Article 326.

Secondly, as the Government constructively consider institutional proposals, will the Leader consider Article 136, under which eurozone member states may go for tighter control of their deficits, and only they may vote on measures imposing such controls, but all member states are entitled to be present and able to defend their interests? Thirdly, will he confirm that it is still the Government’s view that the survival of the eurozone, and therefore the “remorseless logic” of fiscal union among eurozone member states, is an important UK interest and that we therefore wish to help the eurozone quickly reach effective, enforceable arrangements for tighter deficit controls?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

May I ask one question of tactics? I am grateful to the noble Lord. Will he confirm that, exactly 20 years ago, John Major secured the social opt-out and the euro opt-out by attaching his conditions to the conclusion of the negotiation, where unanimity is required, and not to the convening of a negotiation, for which only a simple majority is required?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, is trying to be constructive and helpful in guiding the Government through all this. He asked a number of questions, but I will not be able to answer them all in the time allowed. However, he is right on the financial transaction tax, and I am sure that he is right about us never being outvoted under QMV over the past 20 years. As for the question that he posed at the end about John Major and the opt-outs, I supported the opt-outs. The opt-outs were an excellent thing. However, as soon as the Labour Party got into office it got rid of the opt-outs, and it got absolutely nothing in return. We want something far firmer and longer-term than that.

There are two key questions. First, on the EU institutional proposals and whether we should consider using Article 136, it is, of course, still the earliest possible days in how all this plays out. Even the French President and others have agreed that this process will last until March. There are at least three countries that need parliamentary approval before they can sign up to these treaties, so there is plenty of time to look at these things.

As I said earlier, the exact role being proposed for the institutions is not yet clear to anyone. We will need to look carefully at the detailed proposals as they emerge to ensure that Britain’s interests are safeguarded. The noble Lord also asked about our view overall of the eurozone. Let me say most emphatically that we hope that the new treaty can play a significant role in stabilising the euro and putting it on a strong, sustainable path. That is in the interests of Europe, and it is in British interests as well.

Afghanistan

Debate between Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord West, reminded the House that the combat role in Afghanistan is not limited to the British Army. My noble friend Lord Astor of Hever reminded me that there are also marines, Royal Navy and RAF personnel in Afghanistan. Indeed, the whole spectrum of the British Armed Forces has been working hard, as have many civilians. It is right that we should support every one of them in the work that we do.

The noble Lord, Lord West, is also right, inevitably, when he says that the key driver is the USA. However, the links between us and the USA are extremely strong. I do not think there is any sense of delusion that the British would carry on operations in Afghanistan without America.

On the point about us having a major strategic interest in Afghanistan, I hope the noble Lord would agree that we may have such an interest not just in Afghanistan itself but in a region of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Given the history of terrorism in the last 10 years or so, there are reasons why we should maintain a major strategic interest in the region. I also agree with him about not deluding ourselves—to use his words again— and I do not think we should delude ourselves about our ability to change as much as we think we would like to. We work in partnership with our NATO allies and our American allies to bring as much peace and stability to the region as we can.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on his diplomacy in handling your Lordships’ questions. I understand exactly what he says about the importance of the internal talks being an Afghan-led process. I know that he is not ruling out the possibility that they could be facilitated and assisted by outsiders.

However, I go back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, who stressed the importance of proper preparation for the Bonn conference. She is absolutely right. I know that the noble Lord agrees with her and I am sure that he sees a role for the UK in trying to ensure that all those in the region with the greatest interest in the future stability of Afghanistan are properly involved in preparations for Bonn, and that includes not just the Chinese, Russians and Indians but the Iranians.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord is entirely right. He offered me some praise, which is deeply flattering, and I thank him for it. It is an Afghan-led process and it is important that it should be seen to be so. However, this House knows better than many other houses of parliament how important regional influences are. I would have thought that all those involved in the process understand the need to bring in as many international stakeholders as possible in order to give the long-term peace, stability and potential for growth that the people of Afghanistan crave.

Libya

Debate between Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, I regard that as a very different point and I am able to clarify that to my noble friend.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, the House has heard an admirably clear account of how we got here. I was not as convinced by the way in which the noble Lord brushed aside the question of where we go next. I agree that it is hard to predict the future, but it is good to know where you want to go; that is called having war aims. It seems to me that, as of today, the analogy is with the first Iraq war when we had, as now, a very clear legal base in a Security Council resolution—new and specific—and we had widespread support in the region and in the Muslim world generally. I believe that that is the case now; I hope that it is. We also had very clear war aims. We were going to restore the independence of Kuwait. Therefore, the exit strategy was absolutely clear.

This time, it is so important to retain the support of the Muslim world and the Middle East that it is crucial that the Prime Minister, who moved with admirable speed last week, should move no less fast this week to agree war aims with the Defence Secretary and the Foreign Secretary, across the Government, with Paris and Washington and our other NATO partners and across the Middle East, so that we are clear where it is we want to go. I hope that the noble Lord will pass that message on.

[Lord Strathclyde]

That is a good point well made. The comparison with the clarity of the Gulf War involving Kuwait is a good one, but the timing was so different. We were faced last week with the possible annihilation of opposition forces in Benghazi. I accept the noble Lord’s implied criticism, which I know is meant in a constructive and friendly way, that clear objectives are harder to define. I hasten to add that I hope that I did not brush over that too much. The fact that we have saved civilian lives from the violence of their own regime already is a success and an objective. Enforcing the no-fly zone by damaging Libyan anti-aircraft assets is already a significant change. That means that coalition forces can fly over Libya to enforce the no-fly zone. We believe that that will lead to the Libyan people having a better chance of determining their own destiny than before.