Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Lord Hardie
Lord Hardie (CB)
My Lords, so far there has been reference to time for prayers. In fact, if one looks at new Section 138A, it is much wider than that. It says:
“The business at a meeting of a local authority in England may include time for … prayers or other religious observance, or … observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief”.
To take up the point that the noble Baroness just made, the time at the beginning of a meeting is not necessarily connected with any particular religion. At the risk of offending the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, who is not currently in his place, I say that I understand that at the commencement of business in the Scottish Parliament there is time for reflection led by different religions and by none—the Humanist Society has an opportunity as well—and the Presiding Officer decides based on a rotation. What we are talking about here is an opportunity for local authorities to decide by majority—I accept the point from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that it should be a simple majority—that, if they wish to do so, it might be helpful to have time for reflection, not necessarily by a representative of the established church, but by anyone whom the council decides on. I commend the practice of the Scottish Parliament: it might even be rotated.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham. We do not have prayers at our council meetings. When looking at these amendments today it is worth reminding ourselves of the aim of the Bill—as has been made very clear by a number of noble Lords in their contributions today and in the Second Reading debate.
This is a passive Bill, which requires no one to do anything. It is permissive; it merely gives permission for councillors on parish and town councils and some combined authorities to do what they believed they were able to do in the first place. It brings them into line with the position on higher tiers of local government, namely districts, metropolitan councils, unitary councils, London boroughs and county councils. The Bill is needed because, although the Secretary of State was able, under his powers, to enable these higher tiers of local government to make the decision themselves, his powers did not extend to the lower levels of local government.
I have the greatest respect for all the noble Lords who have put their names to the amendments in this group. On many occasions in your Lordships’ House we have taken the same positions and been in the same Lobby. However, I contend that these amendments are not necessary.
Amendment 1 would remove the whole of the proposed new Section 138A and would effectively remove from the Bill the whole purpose of it being here in the first place. Amendments 2 and 5 would require there to be a two-thirds majority in favour of these proposals and for the decision to be reaffirmed every year at a meeting of the council. In my opinion, that goes too far and is not necessary. If the parish or other council concerned wants to avail itself of these powers, it would have to get agreement. A simple majority is perfectly acceptable in that regard. I agree entirely with the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in that respect.
Amendment 3 seeks to restrict what is allowed to only silent prayers. Silent prayers may be what the authority wants to do, which is perfectly acceptable—or some other act of worship or philosophical belief. But to restrict that would again undermine the permissive nature of the Bill, in that you can do what you want to do: it is your choice. The Bill is not prescriptive in any respect whatever.
Amendment 4, again, is not necessary. Look at the example here in your Lordships’ House: every day one of the right reverend Prelates—today it was the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester—starts our proceeding with Prayers. No one is forced to attend and it is the choice of individual Members whether they do. Those who choose not to attend wait outside until they are told by the doorkeepers that Prayers are over, at which point they come in and take their seats. No business is transacted whatever until Members have taken their seats. Do we really believe that that would not happen at meetings of local authorities? I do not accept that, by not participating in prayers, you would not be seen as a full member of the authority, as suggested by some noble Lords. Again, the amendment is not necessary as the Bill is drafted in such a way as to take account of what people themselves want to do. There is no pressure on anyone to do anything at all.
In conclusion, although I would not be affected by this particular group of amendments, I lived and worked for many years in the east Midlands and I attended the remembrance service that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester referred to. It is a very moving and respectful event for people of no faith and many faiths.