Probate Service

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Howarth of Newport

Monday 27th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie [V]]

My Lords, I very much regret the personal experience that the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, suffered. However, particularly during the present crisis, the probate service is working effectively. There was a move in the last year to a digital system. That is bedding in and proving successful. Indeed, the average waiting time for a grant of probate in the period January to March this year was about four weeks.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab) [V]]

Are not inordinate delays and confusion, applications stuck for four months without explanation, people kept on the line for 50 minutes and staff unable to find relevant documents symptoms of an organisation that was already underfunded and whose staff were undertrained before Covid? Is this service not unacceptable for the families and charities that need assets released? Will the Minister guarantee that fees will not be raised while the performance of the probate registry is so poor?

[Lord Keen of Elie [V]]

My Lords, I do not accept that the performance of the probate service should be characterised as poor. No guarantee can be given regarding fees.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Howarth of Newport

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 15th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

As the noble Lord is aware, there is a level of courts, for example the Sheriff’s Court in Scotland, which is not bound by each other’s judgments, and therefore at that level one could arrive at inconsistency of decision-making, and we are conscious of that. The question is where we should best place the determination, and the whole point of this clause is to allow for the flexibility that is required, upon consultation with the appropriate parties, to determine how we can best achieve the outcome that everyone seeks. I am not in a position to say that it will be just the Supreme Court, as it is under Section 6, or to say that it will be just the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal. However, one can see a rationale behind the approaches, both of which have been supported by various noble and learned Lords in the course of this debate. What we want to be able to do is to resolve that debate and achieve a consensus that will bring about the best result for the law of the United Kingdom, given its different legal systems. What we are seeking in the end is certainty for those who seek to litigate in our courts, and we would achieve that by coming to a consensus on how we should look at EU case law going forward.

I cannot accept the amendment and at this time I would urge the noble Lord to withdraw it.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

How does the Minister defend—if he conceivably can—the violation of the principle of separation of powers embodied in this clause?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I do not consider that this clause in any sense violates the principle of the separation of powers.