Sky and 21st Century Fox: Proposed Merger

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Deben

Thursday 16th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord for repeating an inquiry that he made at the time of an earlier Statement on this same issue, with reference to Section 319 of the 2003 Act. It does refer in particular terms to television and radio; however, I stress the use of the term commitment. In determining that more general issue Ofcom is confident—rightly confident, I suggest—that it can have regard to conduct in other areas of media. For example, the way in which a party has conducted its newspaper empire or whatever may be directly relevant, and indeed often will be, to the question of whether it has a genuine commitment to broadcasting standards when it comes to television and radio. I stress “commitment” as being important in this context.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I thank my noble and learned friend for repeating the Statement, which will cheer a lot of us in its wording and in the commitment to high standards. Is he not also willing to accept that in a world in which we appear to be post-truth, and where there is considerable opportunity for people to create fake news, the position of broadcasters as a source of ensuring that what one understands to be true is true becomes even more important? When we talk about broadcasting standards, therefore, this now means something in our society that is a whole stage further than any consideration which we have had before. I therefore commend my right honourable friend for taking these steps, which enable so careful a consideration to take place.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to my noble friend and agree with him that any test, such as the commitment to broadcasting standards, has to be contextualised and must have regard to the current circumstances in which we operate with regard to our media. That would include the development on the internet of sources of news which may or may not be misleading. We must judge matters in that context.

Prosecutions: Defence Legal Costs

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Deben

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, not only is it a well- ordered scheme, but I was advised of this at a recent tea party.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Does my noble and learned friend accept that those of us who are not declaring an interest because we are not lawyers find all this ridiculous? That is because it is very hard to explain to people who have been prosecuted and who turn out to be entirely innocent, and are 82, that they cannot claim their costs. If people are innocent until proven guilty, not being able to claim their costs against people who have inconvenienced them—to say the least—does not sound to ordinary people like justice.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I say with respect to my noble friend that it is necessary in this context to have regard to the public interest as well as the private interest of individuals. A balance has to be struck in that context. On the case he referred to of an 82 year-old, as I indicated earlier, the individual in question was offered legal aid having been eligible for it. Had he accepted that offer, he would have recovered his costs.

Sky and 21st Century Fox: Proposed Merger

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Deben

Monday 6th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It respectfully appears to me that the reason that we may have had the same issue for the past 14 years is that it reflects the appropriate approach to take to these matters, rather than the straitjacket of some framework, as the noble Lord proposes. It may be that we differ on that point.

I come to the second matter of a fit and proper person. Of course, the fit and proper person test is applied by Ofcom in the context of a broadcasting licence, but we recognise that in looking to behaviour, which is relevant to this question, it would be appropriate to take into account fitness and past behaviour. Whether it is appropriate to adopt a test developed for the Financial Conduct Authority is another matter entirely, but it is clearly open to Ofcom, when approaching this matter, to have regard to how other regulatory bodies consider the questions of fitness and behaviour.

In a sense, the Financial Conduct Authority test is not peculiar to financial services: it reflects what most reasonable people would regard as the relevant litmus test to determine whether somebody is fit and proper for any post, let alone to control a broadcasting medium.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I thank my noble and learned friend for the Statement. I raise again a point made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally. He pointed to the concern that one has when people say, “There are lots of other ways in which news is disseminated”, and therefore the comparison between one television channel and another is perhaps no longer as important as it once was. His point about it being an exemplar—although each case is judged on its own merits and never are other cases not referred to, at least in the mind of those making the decisions—was important.

It is also true that anyone who travels the world to those places where the media have become less and less plural realises the damage that that does to the free society. I hope that my noble and learned friend will pass on to his right honourable friend the concern of many of us that free speech and the free communication of ideas depend on multiplicity and plurality. If ever there were a case in which that has to be defended, it is this case.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to my noble friend Lord Deben. Of course, a vibrant free press and a plurality of press sources is a fundamental part of any democratic society. That is why the Enterprise Act provisions exist: to ensure that public interest considerations can be taken into account when looking at media mergers.

Prison Officers’ Association: Protest Action

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Deben

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. I would point out that these issues have now been addressed by the White Paper announcement and will be taken forward in the context of that White Paper in order that they can be debated and, hopefully, resolved.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, while condemning the unlawful action taken by prison officers, perhaps I may remind my noble and learned friend that we appear to be twice as wicked as the French and the Germans when we work out how many people are put in prison. I cannot believe that. Do we not have to address the fundamental issue that Britain locks up lots of people that no one else does and that our record has therefore not improved? Until we face that, I do not see how we will deal with a whole range of other issues, and prison officers are only making it worse.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I quite understand the concern that we might be perceived to be twice as wicked as the French. Nevertheless, I would point out that all of these statistics are relative across the world and, if we compare ourselves with other jurisdictions, we find that our prison population is much lower per head of population than it is in many other western societies. At the present time, it is not considered that the resolution of this issue lies in sentencing policy; it lies in reform of the prison estate and those who have to work so hard to maintain it.