Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes C, E, F, and H) Order 2018
Debate between Lord Judge and Lord Elton
Lord Judge (CB)
My Lords, the increased protection for those who are vulnerable, for 17 year-olds and for those who are suspects must obviously be welcome. I share the reservations expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about frequent changes to the codes, but they are essential steps to protect those who find themselves engaged with the police. The only further matter that is welcome is the provision of audio-visual recording. In the event of a case going to trial, it will be of great advantage to a jury to see the way in which the suspect, as he would then have been—the defendant, as he will be at the trial—actually answered the questions. It will improve the jury’s opportunity to judge whether the denials made in the interview are genuine or, indeed, whether the confession is a true confession made voluntarily. I therefore welcome the proposals.
Lord Elton (Con)
My Lords, the interest in your Lordships’ House in these codes of practice is far less intense now than it was in 1984, when they were born. I was the Minister in charge of the Bill at the time, and I carry away a clear memory of the two focuses of the House’s interest. One was on stop and search—what happened between the police and the public on the street—and the other was what happened in the police station and the bearing that that had on the result of a fair trial.
I therefore very much welcome the way in which this work has been carried forward, and not allowed to gather dust and become out of date. I also understand the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about frequent amendment; on the other hand, I understand the need to bring things up to date without waiting for the next change to come in.
What we have now is immensely detailed, and the complication of what police officers are required to absorb is considerable. The original codes of practice, including stop and search, occupied 97 pages. Today, just the part that we are dealing with takes 192 pages, and that does not cover stop and search.
My sympathy all down the way is with the policeman. I am astonished at the extent to which policemen on the street know their law, when it has taken us so long to make that law and we have found it so difficult to understand in its totality until it was on the statute book. These people have to make decisions on the spot, in a hurry, probably with fairly difficult circumstances surrounding them, and get it right.
That is not covered by the order: in here is what happens in the police station, when the public are most open to suspect what is going on because they cannot see, and the suspect, who may well be innocent, feels most threatened because he can see no sign of help. The extension of the criterion of vulnerability is extremely welcome. The extension of the means of getting evidence of how things went in the police station, not only for barristers or solicitors to ensure that their clients were protected but also for juries to make up their minds, is extremely welcome.
As, in a sense, the godfather of all this, I welcome its coming of age.