Post Office Network Subsidy Scheme (Amendment) Order 2010

Lord Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Cotter]

I support the Minister on this measure. It is extremely encouraging that the coalition’s approach is a determination to keep our sub-post offices open. I do not wish to have a go at the Opposition but that is extremely welcome in contrast with the previous Government, under whom there were a lot of closures.

When it comes to regulations and Bills, I am always very keen to see whether there is an impact assessment. On this occasion, there is apparently no impact, but I simply raise it as a point that I always tend to raise because, if there is an impact, we must be sure that the matter is addressed when a regulation is brought forward. However, in this case, it does not apply.

I congratulate the Minister on taking the wind out of my sails. I was going to ask for details of what the subsidy would be used towards and so on, but she came forward with some very tangible points which, as I said, took the wind out of my sails. I was going to ask what measures there might be, particularly with, as the Minister said, the decline in the number of letters and in the sale of stamps and so on. Therefore, it is very good to talk about new revenue schemes, longer opening hours and the network being a very strong part of Royal Mail. The Minister also talked about central and local government services being directed, wherever possible, to the Post Office, and of course we have learnt that the banks are going to be engaged in the new arrangements.

Therefore, I shall not waste Members’ time and shall say no more, other than that I very much applaud what has been discussed and I thank the Minister very much for explaining it so clearly. Tangible measures and initiatives will be brought forward to implement what is proposed.

[Lord Jones]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her introduction, which was helpful. I support the order and think that those who originated the network subsidy scheme deserve high praise. It is heartening to hear of a continued determination to keep what is left of the Post Office network. Support for the network of 11,500 branches is good news and I think that it will be acclaimed across the nation.

From my work in another place over many years, it quickly became obvious that any community worthy of the name needed a post office and a school, and this order may well hold the line in terms of our communities. These are big amounts of money and they must be welcomed.

One always speaks from experience, so I instance the sub-post office of Llanfynydd in Flintshire. It is tiny, it is valued and it is the village centre. Nothing is too much trouble for the family who run it. Situated on a Welsh hillside at 800 feet, adjacent to a church and a school, it is the centre of a far-flung, Welsh-speaking community. I do not think that any praise is too high for this particular sub-post office, and I make that statement in the knowledge that there are many hundreds of such sub-post offices across the nation. Long may they remain open, giving our communities the service that they need.

I hope that this order will guarantee the survival of post offices such as the one in Llanfynydd in Flintshire. I think that Wales will benefit from what is being proposed and I welcome the order very much.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I could not help smiling when the Minister defined the Royal Mail and the Post Office because I remember when it was called the GPO, which dates me slightly. I was also an employee and, as I recall, the postmaster-general at the time was Anthony Wedgwood Benn. How time passes when you are enjoying yourself.

We welcome the increased subsidy. However, as the Merits Committee helpfully issued a health warning and said that the Order should be considered in conjunction with the Postal Services Bill, it is only appropriate that we register our concern about the impact of the Postal Services Bill. Of course we welcome the increased subsidy, but we would like to see enshrined in legislation the principle that the Post Office network should be used as the access points for Royal Mail.

We believe that the Secretary of State should have the power to specify exactly how many access points there should be. The reason for that is that it has been suggested that a privatised Royal Mail company might think that its needs could be served by a network of some 4,000 outlets. Currently, we have 11,900 post offices. I certainly endorse the comments of my noble friend Lord Jones about the vital importance of these post offices to the local community. Of that number, some 7,000 or so could be adequate to meet the access criteria that were introduced by the last Labour Government and have been accepted by this Government and spelt out again in their recent document on the future of the Post Office network in the digital age.

The criteria spell out that the access criteria introduced by Labour meant that, as the Minister said, 99 per cent are to be within three miles of their nearest outlet and 90 per cent should be within one mile. The access criteria continue with a more detailed definition in relation to urban and rural areas. The purpose of the criteria is to ensure reasonable access to post offices in both urban and rural areas. Without them, there would be no control of the overall shape of the Post Office network. We believe that a viable sustainable Post Office network is a critical part of the social infrastructure for many communities, which I was pleased to hear the Minister seemed to endorse. That is why we introduced the access criteria: to ensure that communities would continue to be fairly served by a national Post Office network. As I said, these access criteria could be met with something like 7,000 post offices, but we put in an additional investment so that we could keep the number at 11,900.

If the Government are serious about wanting to keep that number of post offices open and keep the network as we know it now, there should be a mechanism that the Government can use. The Secretary of State should have the power to specify the number of post offices to be used as access points for the services of the provider of the universal postal service. I am talking about that in the context of a privatised Royal Mail.

The Minister might argue that it is up to the privatised business what it decides to do, how many access points it uses and where those access point are located. That is precisely our concern. The nature of the relationship between Royal Mail and the Post Office in a privatised environment would be different. Will there be the current inter-business agreement that safeguards that relationship? We are talking about a national network and a universal service that we all agree we want to be easily accessible to everyone in the UK. Given that all parties on both sides of the House now agree on the access criteria of post offices, we cannot see any good argument for the Secretary of State not having the power to specify not only that the provider of the universal service should use post offices as access points but how many post offices that should be. If the Government are serious about protecting the Post Office network, the straightforward solution would be to enshrine in the Postal Services Bill that the Secretary of State should have that power.

We are talking about using large amounts of taxpayers’ money to subsidise the Post Office network. Therefore we want to make sure that that money is used to preserve that as part of the universal postal service. It seems that other countries have no problem about not letting the Government have a say in this. Elsewhere, where there has been privatisation of the mail service—we make it clear that we are opposed to complete privatisation—there has also been legislation to protect the post office network and specify its use as access points for the universal postal service.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Wilcox]

My Lords, I am grateful to those of your Lordships who have participated. The Post Office network is an important national asset and it is important that we ensure it has a secure and sustainable future. My noble friend Lord Cotter paid me the compliment of saying that I had taken the wind out of his sails. As I am a sailing woman, I hope very much that I can reverse that. I hope that I raised the wind in his sails rather than taking it out of them.

My noble friend went on to talk about an impact assessment and I have a little note here on why we do not have one. It says that, as stated in the Explanatory Memorandum to the Post Office Network Subsidy Scheme (Amendment) Order, we do not believe that this order requires an impact assessment. The Government’s core policy is to ensure a Post Office network of at least 11,500 branches, which continues to meet the access criteria that were implemented in 2007 after national public consultation. This is a continuation of existing government policy and therefore does not constitute change for which the impact should be assessed. Moreover, the Government’s guidance on impact assessments states that spending proposals do not generally require them, as they are developed through a business case process. Well, there we are. However, I was delighted to have his support and I hope to continue to have it when the Bill comes to this House, fairly soon.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Jones, for his support. I was listening to his experience in another place and heard of the Flintshire village in the Welsh hillside, whose name I could not pronounce.

[Lord Jones]

Llanfynydd.

[Baroness Wilcox]

Of course. I am not even going to try it.

[Lord Jones]

Which, being translated, means the little church on the hillside.

[Baroness Wilcox]

Well, how lovely indeed. Of the post offices, the rural ones are obviously those which we are all most concerned to do everything that we can to try and keep open.

In the last two outings that we have had facing each other, I have managed each time to call the noble Lord, Lord Young, “the Minister”. I shall try this time not to do it and to remember that I am the Minister. I also forgot the noble Lord’s background in the industry, when he reminded us of the GPO. I am not going to be tempted by him—I have been warned about this—to wander into the Bill, which will of course be with us some time at the beginning of next year. I look forward very much indeed to debating with him when the Bill comes, because of all his experience when he was a Minister. I am sure that he will have some pretty splendid arguments to put up.

I think that I have covered most of the points made. People have been very good. Your Lordships have seemed to be in support so all I need say at this stage, Deputy Chairman, is that I commend the order to the Committee.