Extradition

Lord Jones of Birmingham Excerpts

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord will know that separation of powers is an important part of our constitution. The Home Secretary is saying that this particular power belongs more properly in the judicial process. I think the sentiment around the House suggests that she has that issue right. On the question of Mr McKinnon and what happens to him now, he will be able to apply for release from his bail conditions but it will be for the Director of Public Prosecutions to decide whether he should be tried in the UK. That is not a matter for government.

[Lord Jones of Birmingham]

Will the Minister shed some light on an aspect of the Statement? I am not a learned Lord but I was a practising lawyer for 20 years and I was always taught that one is innocent until proven guilty and should be treated as such. I refer to extradition to the United States on a whim whereby a businessman or businesswoman can now languish in a jail in America without transparent evidence having been provided. They are then pressurised to enter into a plea bargain on the basis that the case will go all the way to trial. They are not granted bail as they are treated as a security flight risk because they had the temerity to fight extradition. They are in a cell and are told, “All this can go away. All you have to do is plead guilty. You can get two years, two years at home in an open prison after that and this can all go away. Or you can sit here in a jail in America while we get the case together over something like two to three years. You will get no costs for your defence. If you are found guilty, you will go down for 30 years and you will never see home again”. The person concerned has had no evidence presented against him that has been tested in any way, shape or form in a transparent open court of law on either side of the Atlantic. I would welcome the Minister shedding some light this afternoon on how that situation is the pursuit of justice of which he speaks.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am not in a position to comment on the judicial procedure in the United States. It is a sovereign country and makes its own laws and conducts its own affairs. Having said that, the noble Lord will appreciate that this country has good and close relations with the United States; indeed, its legal system is founded on our common law. Therefore, we have a shared purpose. Scott Baker managed to show that there was no substantial difference between the test that was applied in a US court for extradition to this country and that which was applied in a UK court for extradition to the United States. He came to the conclusion that it was a reasonable arrangement that fitted with the legal processes in both countries. We are not aware of any extradition cases in the United States where somebody has waited three years for their case to come to trial.

Police: Vehicles

Lord Jones of Birmingham Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am aware of this complaint from a number of noble Lords who have put it to me on a number of occasions. I understand that there might be one or two occasions when police cars are using sirens in an inappropriate way. Again, that should be a matter for the police authorities, but I hope that they will bear in mind what the noble Lord has to say.

[Lord Jones of Birmingham]

I draw noble Lords’ attention to my declared interests. Would the Minister agree with me that it is becoming increasingly difficult for the businesses of this nation to believe that Her Majesty's Government want business to employ more people and pay more tax when they buy their ships from South Korea, their police vehicles from Korea, their trains from Germany and their cars from Japan? Further, would he agree that the EU procurement rules talk about best value and not best price, and that the Government increasingly show that they know the price of everything and the value of nothing?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I would not want to go down the line that the noble Lord is suggesting, which smacks, dare I say it, of protectionism. I want the police authorities and chief constables to buy the cars that they feel are best for their needs. That is why I am particularly grateful, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, that Vauxhall is the largest supplier of one category of cars, which are being built in Ellesmere Port, very close to where he comes from.