Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Lennie

3rd reading
Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Johnson of Lainston) (Con)]

My Lords, it is with deep regret that the UK Government have been unable to secure legislative consent for this Bill from the Scottish Parliament and the Senedd. We have also not been able to secure a legislative consent Motion from the Northern Ireland Assembly, given the lack of a functioning Executive. This is disappointing, given that the same approach was followed in the Trade Act 2021, for which the Scottish and Welsh Governments did recommend consent.

The Government have sought to agree compromises with the devolved Administrations. However, despite the best efforts of officials and Ministers, we have not been able to reach an agreement with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. I remind noble Lords again that during the passage of the Bill and the deals it implements, the Government have undertaken extensive engagement with the devolved Administrations, including ministerial meetings, official-level meetings and meetings of ministerial fora, and there were 25 chief negotiator calls with the DAs regarding the Australia free trade agreement alone. In addition, as I have made clear in each debate on the Bill, I reaffirm the UK Government’s commitment to consult the devolved Administrations before exercising the concurrent power in the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for taking through the Bill, which is a first for both the Minister and the country—our first trade deal signed following our exit from the European Union. The Minister’s enthusiasm for the Bill was always evident throughout its passage. We now have a trade arrangement with Australia and New Zealand. We will wait to see the overall and specific effects, particularly upon our agriculture sector. While the overall impact is predicted to be very limited, a factor caused by the huge distance between Australia and New Zealand and the UK, there were some specific concerns about certain Australian farming methods and the effect on small hill farmers in the UK. I suspect that these account largely for the failure to get agreement from the Scottish and Welsh Governments.

My thanks go again to the Minister and his team of advisers for their openness and, on this side, to Milton Brown, who again has shown good judgment in facilitating the progress of the Bill.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Lennie

Report stage
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I have appreciated my noble friend’s extremely positive interventions and applaud wholeheartedly his phrase, “Let’s get on with it.” He has also been extremely helpful in pointing out the specifics of the Bill and the difficulty of attaching these sorts of amendments to it, although I am very sympathetic to the overall philosophy of the desire for proper impact assessments, which we have had and agree to wholeheartedly in terms of the two-year and the five-year monitoring report. I stress again that this treaty does not create a precedent. However, it does create a model. I am very impressed and support wholeheartedly the flexibility of this agreement because it will allow us and allow noble Lords to call Ministers to account on a constant and rolling basis concerning the effectiveness of these trade treaties.

I believe that I have covered most of the points raised. I am very happy to continue a dialogue around these and any other measures that may not have been covered on this important piece of legislation. We believe, and I believe passionately, that this trade Bill is a good thing for this country. It will be of huge benefit to our citizens and our consumers. It will give us enormous additional security and allow us to have a closer relationship with two nations that have been, since their founding, sister nations of this country.

I am continually being asked by the representatives of Australia and New Zealand when this treaty will come into force because, as soon as it does, and only then, their businesses and citizens, and ours, will be able to take advantage of it. I call on this House to support the Government in this mission. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, to withdraw his amendment, and for the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, not to move theirs.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

The TAC covering procurement seems to be a future possibility, and I welcome the Minister’s comments on it. On the questions of food standards and quality assurance that noble Lords have raised, we will wait and see. We will have a review in two years and a conclusion to that in five years, and we will find out whether the assurances that we seek on food standards have been maintained. I do not think that there is any doubt about this being a gateway agreement: it is clearly to do with the CPTPP. The impact assessment that we are calling for is a one-off. This is the first time that we have negotiated a trade deal for some 45 years. To make sure that we have covered all the bases and got things right, we thought that a review—rather more frequently than the five years offered—would have been better. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 2, in my name, is a minor and technical amendment that has been tabled by the Government to correct a typographical error in the Bill and clarify the power available to Ministers of the Crown or a devolved Administration under Clause 1. I am very grateful for noble Lords’ scrutiny, which was instrumental in highlighting this typographical error in the Bill. In particular, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who is not in his usual place, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh, for highlighting this issue in Committee. If I may say so, their laser focus on detail in the Bill shows the real value of your Lordships’ House in ensuring that legislation is as robust and clear as possible. The Government are very grateful to noble Lords for highlighting this issue. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

There is nothing to say; we agree.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I rise briefly to speak to Amendments 7 and 8 in this group. These two amendments would sunset the ability to make amendments to two years after the law passes or the UK’s accession to the CPTPP. Incidentally, the Government previously said that accession would happen last year, but, as I am sure we are aware, it has not yet taken place.

The Explanatory Notes to these deals state that each party to the free trade agreement should ensure that its domestic legislative framework is consistent with the obligations in the FTA. The UK-Australia and UK-New Zealand free trade agreements require changes to domestic procurement law. Therefore, why not have sunset powers in the legislation? Is there any expectation that achieving this intention would take more than two years, and are there concerns that constant updates would be required for whatever reason? If so, would it be right to do so for more than two years in any event? If accession to the CPTPP will change our trade relationship with Australia and New Zealand, will a domestic legislative framework need to be updated in a manner not possible within the powers in the Bill so that it is aligned with the CPTPP and these deals if they are to coexist? A series of trade experts have commented that the UK will be a rule-taker, not a rule-maker, when we join the CPTPP. The Minister may perhaps wish to comment on this interplay between the Australia and New Zealand trade deals and the CPTPP. I beg to move.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, I turn to Amendment 8 specifically, which seeks for the Bill to lapse when the UK joins the CPTPP. Bilateral free trade agreements, such as these signed with Australia and New Zealand, do not lapse due to membership of plurilateral agreements such as the CPTPP and the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement. They exist alongside each other—that is important to note—with the UK having separate and continuing commitments under each. This is already the case with the numerous bilateral trade agreements that the UK has with members of the GPA, such as Canada, Switzerland, the Republic of Korea, the EU and Ukraine, to name a few.

I emphasise that the procurement chapters of the Australia and New Zealand agreements will not be superseded by the UK’s accession to the CPTPP. Accordingly, the power in the Bill will still be needed when the UK has acceded to the CPTPP, to implement future modifications to the Australia and New Zealand agreements. In light of this, I ask for the amendment to be withdrawn.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

National Minimum Wage (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Lennie

Monday 6th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My thanks are due to the Minister for setting out the upratings on the national minimum wage, the living wage and associated allowances, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for setting out his views on how things should improve in future. These changes are welcomed by the Opposition. Not surprisingly, it was us who set up the national minimum wage in 1999. We had a minimum wage, below which earnings must not fall, in the teeth of fierce opposition from the then Conservative Opposition Benches. I am glad that that situation has now been ameliorated, and they now support the minimum wage; all converts are welcome.

I think the number of jobs covered in all these figures is 2.9 million. The number affected by the national minimum wage is approximately 1.5 million, which compares with 700,000 at the time of its introduction. Does the Minister have any explanation for this increase in the numbers covered by the national minimum wage? Retail, hospitality and cleaning and maintenance are overrepresented in the minimum wage sector, and women are approximately two-thirds of those currently on the national minimum wage. Some explanation for that would be helpful.

The Labour Party would ensure that the national minimum wage was a real living wage. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked how to do so. We would do it by changing the Low Pay Commission’s remit so that, in addition to other factors, it reflected the need for working people’s pay to at least cover the cost of living. The national living wage would finally live up to its name. We would ensure that the national minimum wage applied to every adult worker and was properly enforced. It is unfair to pay adult workers below the national minimum wage, and by adult worker we mean everyone aged 18—the age at which you are treated as an adult in the UK—or over.

Many employers already pay the national minimum wage, and that is to be commended, but compliance is a big and continuing problem. Can the Minister tell us how many prosecutions or enforcements took place last year for failure to pay the national minimum wage? We welcome these upratings, as I have said, and look forward to having the opportunity to progress this legislation further by extending the protection that the national minimum wage provides for all adult workers sometime in the near future.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their valuable contributions in today’s debate. I particularly appreciated the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, about my responses on the OQ earlier. I like to think that we will have a slightly more mature exchange over this issue than we experienced then—but such is the nature of the important scrutiny of the parliamentary system.

If noble Lords do not mind, I will go through and try to answer some of the points raised by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked about the relationship between the October date and the bringing into practice date of 1 April. In normal periods, that would be a perfectly reasonable time lag; in fact, it is relatively fast for Governments to move with only a six-month or so period. I am very sensitive to the fact that we live in an inflationary environment, and inflation is taken into account by the Low Pay Commission. A number of factors are taken into account, as noble Lords may imagine. It would be difficult to make sudden changes, however, given the fact that we need to make sure that employers have a suitable timeframe to bring into practice the pay increases. Although the public sector is also paying the minimum wage and the national living wage, we must not forget that it is on the whole employers who are paying these additional wages, and we should be thankful to them for the support of this overall concept.

Given that this is appraised every year, I hope we will still be in a position to make sure that these wages reflect our ambition, which is to make them represent two-thirds of median earnings. In preparation for this debate, I did some work with the officials from the department, who can bear witness to this. I wanted to see where we were in relation to other European countries on median earnings and absolute amounts, given the currency fluctuations. It is not my place to celebrate or feel triumphant about minimum wage levels, because we want people on maximum wage levels—but it is important to see where we stand, so at least we can benchmark. We compare very strongly. If you look at where we are on the European averages, you can see that we are one of the highest, out of the whole of Europe, and we compare extremely favourably with countries such as Germany.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, made a very good point, and I have thought about the philosophy of minimum wages, which were brought in in 1999 by a Labour Government and not supported by the Conservative Opposition at the time. I personally was unsure of what the effects would be on business; I was concerned that it would drive up costs for business and cause a negative or opposite effect to giving people security—that it would lead to greater insecurity and lower levels of employment. Actually, it has made sure that people are guaranteed a level of income, and it is an extremely powerful way for us to manage our economy. I am very pleased that we have converted—and, like all converts, we have probably ended up being more passionate about the cause than the original proponent. We have introduced the national living wage, which is a very effective way to ensure that the overall pay rates are raised.

On the noble Lord’s comment about the age at which these rates should apply—in other words, that the national minimum wage and the national living wage should be synchronous—I have some sympathy. At the same time, it has been believed, and I think there is evidence, that an element of flexibility for 18 to 22 year-olds, or those in their early 20s, is necessary, particularly as that is where there is greater vulnerability for employment volatility. We have plans for the pay scales of those over the age of 21 to eventually come into line with the national living wage, but we would still be keen to retain some flexibility for employees below that level.

This is all about making sure that the employment market functions properly and that we can employ as many people as possible at the right rates. This is certainly a matter for debate—we are trying to ensure, not that people are paid less, but that there is flexibility in the market so that new workers in the workforce can get the jobs they need.

It is important to cover the noble Lord’s point about there now being 1.5 million, from 700,000 when this came into practice. I am happy to do some more analysis of that, but my surface suspicion is that there are 3.75 million new people in the workforce since 2010. It would be interesting to see an analysis of what those jobs are. I would like to inquire into this, as I appreciate that the noble Lord has raised a very relevant point. In some respects, I would like to think that it is a good thing that we have people coming into the workforce, but clearly we do not want to see a derogation of wages. We want to see people being paid more. I stress that these are minimum-wage levels—they are not the set wage levels—to ensure that no one is paid less than that rate.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, mentioned issues around fixed-hours contracts and the flexible economy. We are doing an awful lot in that area to make sure that people have an element of certainty. He was generous enough to remember my response to the Oral Question earlier today. There is quite a long list of different types of specific protections that we are bringing in. I draw his attention to the Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Bill, which effectively allows employees to demand flexible working from day one, rather than week 26, and to the Workers (Predictable Terms and Conditions) Bill, which is probably more relevant to what he was talking about. It gives more strength to employees’ requirements for predictability in terms of numbers of hours if they are on temporary work contracts. Once you have worked for an employer on a part-time basis for a certain length of time, you will be given a greater opportunity to ask for predictability in how you are paid and your hours.

We have to strike a balance—and I think we do—in giving employers flexibility, which is at the core of what has been an incredibly dynamic and successful labour market over the last 20 years or longer, and making sure that workers feel protected. Importantly, flexible working hours are very much appreciated by a number of workers who want flexibility. It would be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of zero-hours contracts or highly flexible working. People appreciate them, as they give a great deal of flexibility. A lot of students and part-time workers who could not do full-time work and would not want predictable work will use these contracts. They constitute about 3% of the workforce. There are mechanisms and there is analysis of how we can improve the rights of workers, but we do not want to dilute the flexibility that these structures give to our workforce and economy.

The question from the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, about the factors that the Low Pay Commission takes into account is well made. It takes a great number of factors into account when assessing pay. I believe that the Government have accepted all the recommendations of the Low Pay Commission; this is a very important partnership that we have. My assumption is that the factors in decision-making are continually reviewed, which is absolutely right. Ultimately, our ambition is to ensure that the national living wage effectively reaches two-thirds of median earnings by next year. I am very pleased to say that we are on track to achieve that. As a nation and a society—let alone a sense of triumph for the Government; this is about people’s hard work and being rewarded properly—it would be a great thing if the United Kingdom could achieve that, and we are on track and very close to doing so.

I believe I have covered all the issues, except for the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, on tips. I am afraid I do not recall seeing the noble Lord in his usual place on Friday for the debate on tips. The legislation is very specific and will be brought to bear specifically so that all tips go to the workforce, with no deductions, not even for credit card charges. I hope that is clear, because that is the whole purpose. They will be paid monthly, so they cannot be accumulated, and, importantly, they cannot be used as so-called “pay bonuses” or “top-ups”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, could he comment—or write to me if he cannot—on enforcement actions in the past 12 months? What are the numbers and so on?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Lennie. I try to answer all the questions, but there is always one that I miss. Enforcement is very important and all businesses are responsible for paying the correct minimum wage to their staff. HMRC follows up on every worker complaint it receives, even those that are anonymous. This includes complaints made to the ACAS helpline. In 2021-22, HMRC identified pay arrears in excess of £16.3 million for more than 120,000 workers. I am very happy to go through this now, but it might be more useful to write to the noble Lord if he is happy with that.

I will address one point that has been raised. To some extent I am embarrassed by it, but not embarrassed to be open and transparent about it. The question was why the listing of companies that have not paid their staff the minimum wage had not happened. The list is supposed to be published every quarter. I am afraid that there has been some turnover of Ministers. I spoke to the Minister responsible today and he is determined to make sure that it happens in the very near future. I cannot give a specific time, but we are very aware of it. We want to make sure these companies are named; it is a powerful incentive for employers to behave properly. We are entirely of one mind here and I will be delighted to put the information in the House of Lords Library relating to enforcement. The good news is that I can reassure the Committee that HMRC in particular has been focusing on tackling wilful non-compliance and that significant progress has been made.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Lennie

Committee stage
Monday 23rd January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. I think I have made my position clear that any concomitant actions following on from this Bill will relate specifically to the matters necessary for bringing it into force. Pursuant powers—this is an important commitment—are very much linked to what we would describe as minor and specific issues. They could relate to changes in government departments’ names, such as the Department for Culture, Media and Sport adding “Digital” to its name. The effective implementation of that in the agreements is relevant in these texts, so it would be confined to errors such as that. I know that we will discuss the concept the noble Lord raised regarding Scotland later in Committee, so I will be delighted to go into more detail on that then.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, the problem is that the Bill does not say that. That is the point being made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. I thank noble Lords who have spoken: the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, on his two amendments and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, for a lot of helpful clarification. Given any future misuse of power through statutory instruments, our super-affirmative proposal later will no doubt be supported, because that will make the scrutiny of the Bill that much more thorough than is intended as we speak. The Minister said that no powers beyond these FTAs are proposed by the Bill, but it does not say that—it indicates that there may be powers in other places that we need to watch for. However, with that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. Consent is either given or not given. For the reasons why, he must make inquiries of the various Assemblies that have not given their consent and ask them why they are not supporting this free trade agreement, which I think will bring them enormous benefits. We remain committed to the consultation process in all our activities. Frankly, it would probably be impractical not to do so in any event.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for their contributions. On the question that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, asked and the Minister tried to answer, the withdrawal of consent is probably a consequence of the lack of consultation—not necessarily the quality of the agreement but the lack of involvement in its development. This amendment is trying to obviate that for the future, so that if there is a formal consultation, it is seen to have taken place, and then an agreement on behalf of the UK is reached and can be properly explored—or not—throughout the UK. However, consent could not then be withheld by Parliament or an Assembly in one of the parts of the UK. That seems to me the main benefit of the amendment, but for now, I will beg leave to withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I always appreciate the noble Lord’s interventions. Hopefully, I will cover this issue as I go through my notes. I will continue to go through these points because they are important, and it is important that noble Lords hear from me the relevance we place on these discussions. This really is the meat, as they say, of the free trade debate, although I do not see that it relates specifically to this Bill. I appreciate that I have gone into a lot of detail, but these are important issues. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for his comments and to the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh for tabling their amendments in the interests of our frankly brilliant farming communities. I hope I have to some extent been able to reassure them that their amendments are not required.

Turning to Amendments 4, 13, 14, 17 and 18 from the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Purvis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, on environmental, social and labour considerations, I want to reassure the House that both the Australia and New Zealand FTAs include comprehensive chapters that cover labour and animal rights and commitments not to derogate from environmental and labour laws, to reaffirm our climate commitments under the Paris Agreement and to strengthen co-operation in a number of areas. The Government are committed to upholding the UK’s high environmental standards, and we will continue to ensure a high level of environmental protection in our trade agreements.

These chapters also include commitments not to derogate from laws, regulations and policies in a manner that weakens or reduces the level of animal welfare protection as an encouragement for trade or investment between the parties. For example, the UK-New Zealand agreement contains the largest list of environmental goods with liberalised tariffs in any trade deal, supporting both countries’ climate and environmental goals through trade policy. I think the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, touched on that—the importance of trying to ensure that we benefit in the area of net-zero in particular. We have that specifically in our treaties. Provisions included under these FTAs went further than both Australia and New Zealand had previously gone before.

I turn to the review of negotiation and Amendment 12 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie. This would create a duty of the Secretary of State to undertake and publish a review of the lessons learned from negotiating the procurement chapter. I agree that learning the lessons from negotiations is crucial to the UK getting the best outcome from them. Indeed, we already do this, so it is not necessary to create a statutory requirement to undertake such a review. All negotiations are different, as I have said, but my department is committed to learning from each negotiation and applying those lessons directly to its work, both in chapters and across negotiations. DIT has a continuous improvement team dedicated to learning lessons from trade negotiations. I am confident that this approach towards negotiating procurement chapters allows for high-quality chapters that work well for British businesses and consumers. I hope this provides reassurance to the Committee.

On SMEs, which are very relevant and relate to Amendment 16 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, I reassure the Committee that the procurement chapters of both agreements include articles on facilitating the participation of SMEs in procurement. Both chapters also include provisions on continuing to co-operate with Australia and New Zealand to facilitate participation of SMEs over the lifetime of the agreements.

We worked very hard to ensure that SMEs were engaged before and during the negotiations. Indeed, Lucy Monks of the FSB gave evidence to the Commons on the engagement the Department for International Trade has carried out with SMEs. Hopefully, what she said is heard:

“The Department for International Trade has been talking to us and other bodies about encouraging opportunities. It is an ongoing process.”


I know the department is extremely keen to see these agreements brought into effect. We are very serious about our ambitions to support SMEs in trade, and we seek a dedicated SME chapter and SME-friendly provisions throughout all our trade agreements, as we have done in these ones. I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue during the passage of the Bill; however, I do not believe his amendment is necessary, given what the Government are doing to support SMEs and appropriately assess the impact of our trade deals on this vital part of our economy.

In concluding, I wish to return to the point on impact assessments being required prior to any regulations being made. In addition to the reasons I gave earlier in relation to what the Government have already done on impact assessments in each area raised, requiring further assessments to be done before regulations can be made would delay the entry into force of these agreements, as I am sure noble Lords will agree. This would delay the point at which UK businesses and consumers could benefit from the advantages of these agreements with Australia and New Zealand—an outcome to which I simply do not believe your Lordships’ House aspires.

We have covered a lot of ground in this debate, but I hope I have been able to demonstrate in each important area the wide range of work and analysis that the Government and other groups independent of government have done and will do to ensure that these specific issues are addressed. I ask noble Lords to withdraw or not press their amendments.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, that was a long one. We have been here for half an hour listening to the response on what is essentially a fairly simple set of amendments about impact assessments and reviews.

I start with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, who brought up the behaviour of his right honourable friend George Eustice. I am quite grateful to George Eustice, because he wrote my speech for me when he was critical of this agreement to the degree that he was, but I would say that you are going to get that kind of discipline back into the Tory party only when it becomes a single party. There are at least three Tory parties continuously at war with each other. It seems to me that, as long as that continues, it is good for us but not so good for the Tories. We have been there before ourselves; we are not in that position now, thank goodness. We will see what happens with that one.

The Minister listed the areas where impact assessments have already been undertaken or are no longer necessary, but Labour’s stand is that climate change, the NHS and the regions were missing from that list. It seems to me that the purpose of an impact assessment in a trade agreement is to give a more precise prediction of what is expected in these areas from the agreement, then the reviews measure whether the impact assessment proved to be about right, wide of the mark or different. The Minister said that this does not set a precedent for other agreements, but it does, whether he likes it or not. Everyone will be looking at this agreement, as it is the first one, and will be looking to make predictions about their own position in relation to the UK as we come to trying to make agreements with those countries. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is right: the nearer we are to import products, the higher the risk for the UK. It is an obvious statement, but Australia is as far away as we can get. It does, however, have an impact. This agreement has a bigger impact than just the pounds and pence that it will produce for the UK and Australian economies.

With those remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment; we will probably return to this issue at a later stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their comments. I am delighted to respond to the thoughtful contributions we have heard—from the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Kerr, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh—on the issue of scrutiny and how regulations made under the Bill will be made.

Before I focus on the amendments themselves, I would like to draw attention to the beautifully short report published by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on this Bill, on 11 January. Unlike my previous response, as has been alluded to, it was extremely short. The committee found that there was nothing to note on this Bill’s use of delegated powers. The Government are of course extremely satisfied that the committee is content with the use of the negative procedure in the Bill.

I reiterate that the Bill is required to implement two free trade agreements that Parliament has already scrutinised. The scrutiny process under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act was completed for the Australia FTA in July 2022 and for New Zealand in December 2022. We engaged extensively with Parliament throughout the negotiation process. For these deals, this included eight public progress reports during talks, including extensive information published at agreement in principle, and 12 sessions with the International Agreements Committee and the Commons International Trade Committee, both in public and in private with Ministers and/or officials, before and after signature. There were nine ministerial Statements—three oral and six written—and eight MP briefings, plus one on the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill.

A programme of statutory instruments has been put in place to implement the agreements to ensure that the UK is not in breach on its entry into force in the following areas: rules of origin and tariffs, intellectual property, government procurement, immigration rules changes, and, for the New Zealand FTA only, technical barriers to trade.

The Government have long acknowledged that, due to their length, complexity and importance, FTAs warrant a bespoke framework of scrutiny, and our full range of commitments is contained within the exchange of letters conducted last year between my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Grimstone, and the International Agreements Committee.

I turn to the specific issues raised by these amendments. It is the Government’s view that the amendments would require disproportionate scrutiny of the regulations to implement what Parliament has already had the opportunity to scrutinise, including through noble Lords’ scrutiny of this Bill. As it may be of interest to noble Lords, I can commit to sharing the draft procurement SIs ahead of Report. They will be in a draft version subject to change, due to consultations, as noble Lords can imagine, legal checks and recognising that the Bill is still undergoing scrutiny by your Lordships’ House. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, is satisfied by that.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

In all the meetings and information provided in various forms throughout the process—and I accept that there was a lot—was any opportunity given for anyone to say no to any of it?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

This is a consultative process designed to get as much as much input as possible into what is ultimately a negotiated outcome. As a House, we have the opportunity to vote on this Bill alone. I hope that we certainly will decide to support it, so I do not really understand the noble Lord’s point, in the sense of people being able to say yes or no. We are voting on a piece of legislation that is extremely relevant to the execution of our free trade agreements, which is why, if I may be so bold, we have had a wide-ranging debate in this House on the issues behind the free trade agreements specifically relating to this Bill, which, I think we all agree, is particularly specific and without contention. My answer to the noble Lord is that we have had a huge debate and a very high degree of consultation and have followed more than the process laid out for scrutinising free trade agreements in Parliament and nationwide.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, will want me to be specific in my response to the amendments, but he will be glad to know that there are significantly fewer pages in my response to this group than in the previous response. There is precedent for the approach the Government have taken. Clause 1 of the Trade Act 2021 was used to implement the UK’s accession to the WTO agreement on government procurement, the GPA, and the regulations made there were subject to the negative procedure, so that is important to note. Parliament had the opportunity to scrutinise the UK’s accession to the GPA through the CRaG process before the subsequent regulations were made. This is the same situation we have here for the Australia and New Zealand free trade agreements. I am very comfortable in confirming that as the ultimate point.

Amendments 10, 21, 22, 24, 26, 28, 29, 31 and 33 relate to the super-affirmative procedure, which I believe the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, raised, and are tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie. This is the process used for statutory instruments when an exceptionally high degree of scrutiny is thought appropriate. An example is remedial orders, which the Government can use to amend Acts of Parliament should the courts find them in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. That example seems significant, but I respectfully suggest that it is disproportionate to use this process to approve the minor technical changes needed to implement the procurement commitments in the Australia and New Zealand FTAs. It would also represent a significant use of parliamentary time when Parliament has already debated the fundamental issues.

Another important consideration is how the use of the super-affirmative procedure will lead to delays in these agreements entering into force, which I think we have all agreed is not desirable. Parliament has had sight of the Australia and New Zealand agreements for 13 and 11 months respectively. It is right that we take appropriate time to scrutinise these deals properly, but we must now get on with entering these agreements into force to ensure that UK businesses and consumers can benefit from the significant economic advantages as soon as possible. This is also the shared desire, as I stated earlier, of the Labour Governments in Australia and New Zealand.

In terms of modifications, there may be small changes to be made to the procurement chapters—for example, machinery of government changes. It is important to stress that the Government have no intention of making significant changes to these agreements. I have stated this before and do so again. The Government are proud of the Australia and New Zealand FTAs and have no intention of significantly modifying them in structural terms.

The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, also deal with the scrutiny of regulations made by devolved Ministers and regulations made by a Minister of the Crown jointly with a devolved authority. The increased level of scrutiny set out in the proposed amendments would be as disproportionate in the devolved legislatures as in the UK Parliament. The reasons I have already given are as applicable to secondary legislation made in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as they are to secondary legislation made in Westminster concerning the specifics of secondary legislation relating to this Bill, such as technical changes relating to machinery of government changes.