Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership (IAC Report)

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. The checking is a matter for the Food Standards Agency. We have made a number of assertions. It believes that this FTA will not result in additional risk for it. I do not wish to be contentious. I always listen very closely to the noble Baroness’s comment about free trade. We do not share the same views on its benefits. I listened to her very carefully and I noticed that at no point did she mention the principle of the consumer. I am particularly focused on making sure that the consumer benefits from these free trade deals—that they see prices come down and the range of products broaden.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, mentioned the concept of proximity being at the core of trade. For many goods, it is right and in fact efficient to have a proximous concept of trade. I think of the idea of swapping beef herds, in terms of practicality—although I think we sell better beef than the Australians, and certainly more specialist types—so there is a market in that sense. However, if we look at investment, which is an important element of the CPTPP, our two biggest investment partners in terms of growth and current value are the United States and now India. They are clearly not the most proximous countries to the UK, so it is important to understand that, in modern trade, in services, the digital provision of services and financial investment, the world truly is our oyster.

Speaking of investment: the ISDS concern is raised continually. As Investment Minister, I believe that strong investment protections for investors into the UK are at the core of our offering. If, at any point, investors felt that their investment rights would be derogated, it would be much harder for all of us—and whoever stands in my place as Investment Minister—to get the vital money that we need for our infrastructure into this country. These ISDS provisions are enormously beneficial for us. I feel totally safe in offering them to other countries. I do not believe that there is any derogation of our ability to manage our economy, our ambitions for net zero, how we treat our workforce or any other measure. Investing in these CPTPP countries protects our businesses, particularly in countries such as Malaysia where we now have these protections.

That brings me briefly to the services point—

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I entirely agree with the Minister about ISDS. Will he confirm that ISDS will be in any trade deal we sign with India?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

This is not in my notes. I cannot confirm what will be in our trade deal with India. I stress the importance of protecting our investor base when we invest internationally. It is right that the services principle has been raised. One of the most effective elements of the CPTPP treaty revolves around our agricultural access, where there is a high degree of compatibility between what we produce and what these markets want, as there is with goods. Noble Lords have raised this on a number of occasions. The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, raised the point about the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, which particularly welcomes the relationship with Malaysia, where there is a different tariff approach. The rules of origin will simplify a lot of activity when we come to work with these countries. We do a lot of manufacturing trade with countries such as Japan, Malaysia, Vietnam and other CPTPP countries.

Services are the future. Some 80% of our economy and its growth are structured around services. The services chapters in the CPTPP can go further. This is a living agreement. We will build on the chapters, particularly on digital, that allow us to expand our services access. There are important basic building blocks around professional qualification recognition and plans to develop this effectively, to promote collaboration between professional qualification providers. It promotes collaboration between regulators. It allows for more effective business mobility, which is important. Someone who is posted to Canada on a work contract can take their spouse. There is first-time access and security for business mobility in countries such as Malaysia and Brunei, as well as other opportunities, such as transportation in Chile, and a number of other key points relating to digital provision and preventing data localisation. These all sound quite technical but are very important in firing the starting gun on further discussions.

A number of Peers, including the noble Lords, Lord Purvis, Lord Kerr and Lord Anderson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, have mentioned that these further discussions are encapsulated around a general review. This is a useful mechanism for us to participate in before we become a full member, as we are doing. This conversation will certainly include how to build on the services offering that is in the CPTPP. We welcome it. Our teams will be fully dedicated to it.

The noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Marland, looked at the secretariat which will help us in these negotiations. I ask noble Lords to forgive me if I have missed any who also made this point. We have 14 full- time personnel who are part of the negotiating team and who now make up the CPTPP unit within the Department for Business and Trade. As I understand it, they are permanent and will not be moved to negotiate another deal. They will stay, I hope, to focus on making sure that we have a close relationship with the CPTPP countries. If a permanent secretariat is developed in the coming years, they would feed into that.

We want this organisation to grow, have deep roots and be strong for the future. I do not know what the plans are relating to the secretariat, but these are always live conversations, and of course we will feed in where appropriate. Once we become a full member, we will be able to put our platform forward with more vigour.

A question which is oft raised is how the department promotes the CPTPP to small businesses. I am very pleased that there is an SME chapter in the CPTPP; it is important, because it helps all economies focus on how they can help small and medium-sized enterprises to make the most of the CPTPP. This is at the core of all the economies that are participating in the treaty.

I am aware of the difficulty in promoting quite a complex treaty principle—there are rules of origin and comparable treaties, as we have treaties with many of these countries already, so it is not necessarily clear sometimes which treaty you should use, and you have to pick which of the two. We have done a great deal of work to ensure that our online access is powerful enough to enable people to make these decisions. We have a unit which specialises in promoting our free trade agenda and the treaties that we have signed up to. It has run a number of workshops. We need to work with the Chambers of Commerce to make sure that we get the message out.

I am totally aware of the need to ensure that this is a success, and I welcome the challenge. Crucially, the department sees it as part of its conceptual and fundamental mission. This Government want to be proud of their post-Brexit vision of Britain. Therefore, it is up to us to ensure that we deliver, by making the necessary noise to get as many businesses involved, both in exporting and in taking advantage of this treaty.

I hope I have covered the majority of the points raised. I am always comfortable coming back to noble Lords and the committee. Again, I congratulate the committee, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for the work they do and the high degree of collaboration that they have with me.

On the question of our trade policy, people hunt for a matrix or template of what tomorrow holds. Looking back on our accession to the CPTPP, I am reminded that it has been likened to the next-door neighbour’s cat with a cough—I cannot remember quite what the quote was from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. But I think this is a lion that will roar. Think of the rather extraordinary counterintuitive decision to say that we are going to pivot—that we had a relationship with the European Union and are now going to look for bigger and better relationships around the rest of the world. That is exactly the sort of economic decision that a good businessperson would take. Unquestionably, there is no derogation in the need to have the highest-quality trading relationship with our European neighbours, but where is the future? That is the point.

If you asked any of the next generation coming through—some of them are in this Chamber today—they would say that we should look to Asia and the growing populations. My noble friend Lady Lawlor rightly pointed to the astonishing levels of growth coming from those economies. In this country, for a politician, Cabinet Minister or Prime Minister—the leadership in this great nation of ours—to decide to go for the Pacific in this way and join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership is an astounding jump of the mind that I am sure previous senior mandarins of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office must be aghast at—such out-of-the-box thinking.

I am enormously proud to have been party to bringing this legislation through this House and promoting it with all noble Lords in this place. If I can repeat them, the countries are Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Peru, Singapore, New Zealand, Vietnam, Japan, Malaysia and Mexico. We are proud to join that phenomenal cohort. I am excited about the future and very positive about the opportunities that this trade treaty will bring. In my view, it will far outstrip the predictions made by everyone in this House, and even the Government themselves. I am grateful for this opportunity to discuss it.

Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I too congratulate the Minister and thank him for the way he has handled relations, not just with the House but with its International Agreements Committee. He has been open, transparent and forthcoming with documents.

I also make a public service announcement. In the next couple of weeks, the International Agreements Committee will be publishing a full report on our accession. Let me reassure the House, as we pass this Bill, that the International Agreements Committee will not say anything which would imply that we should not pass it. We too very much welcome this accession.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate all the comments made. I will revert back on the principles around legislative consent, but I can assure your Lordships that we are having very constructive conversations with all the devolved nations. I beg to move.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Committee stage
Monday 23rd January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. This is one reason why we are pressing ahead with the Bill: it is part of the process that will lead to the agreement coming into force. I will cover this later in Committee, I am sure, but there are other legislative acts that need to be brought into force, to enable the entire agreement to function, at which point we will have the entry into force of the FTA—a moment we are all, frankly, much looking forward to.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, can I ask him about his reassurance to the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, on Amendment 1? He said we need not worry about Clause 1(2) because Clause 1(1) can be used only in cases arising from these two trade agreements. I think I follow the Minister’s argument—until I turn to Clause 2. Clause 2 seems extremely permissive and says one can make provision, general or specific, or

“make provision for different purposes or areas”.

Can the Minister expand on his assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and assure me that the Bill as a whole, not just Clause 1(2), cannot be used for purposes other than to deal with cases arising as a result of the two free trade agreements?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. I think I have made my position clear that any concomitant actions following on from this Bill will relate specifically to the matters necessary for bringing it into force. Pursuant powers—this is an important commitment—are very much linked to what we would describe as minor and specific issues. They could relate to changes in government departments’ names, such as the Department for Culture, Media and Sport adding “Digital” to its name. The effective implementation of that in the agreements is relevant in these texts, so it would be confined to errors such as that. I know that we will discuss the concept the noble Lord raised regarding Scotland later in Committee, so I will be delighted to go into more detail on that then.

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[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with those who argue that the regulatory procedure is insufficient for looking at these regulations for all the familiar arguments, which I need not go into.

Our role in the House of Lords in relation to the negative procedure is nugatory. I do not think that that is quite right. The matters we are discussing are quite important, so I support Amendment 20. Part of my concern is that I am worried about Clause 2 itself. I have mentioned this before. I would be very grateful if the Minister would construe what Clause 2(1)(a) means. It says that:

“Regulations under section 1 may … make provision for different purposes or areas”.


What does “different” mean? Looking at it, I see that regulations under Section 1 must be provisions to implement the procurement chapters of these two agreements. So what are the “different purposes” mentioned in Clause 2(1)(a)? This is rather permissive drafting. I want to know what “different” means. Could “different” mean going beyond the scope of the procurement chapters in the free trade agreements with Australia and New Zealand? If it does mean that, we are giving the Government a pretty wide power in Clause 2. If it does not mean that, why is it necessary to have the language at all?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their comments. I am delighted to respond to the thoughtful contributions we have heard—from the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Kerr, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh—on the issue of scrutiny and how regulations made under the Bill will be made.

Before I focus on the amendments themselves, I would like to draw attention to the beautifully short report published by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on this Bill, on 11 January. Unlike my previous response, as has been alluded to, it was extremely short. The committee found that there was nothing to note on this Bill’s use of delegated powers. The Government are of course extremely satisfied that the committee is content with the use of the negative procedure in the Bill.

I reiterate that the Bill is required to implement two free trade agreements that Parliament has already scrutinised. The scrutiny process under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act was completed for the Australia FTA in July 2022 and for New Zealand in December 2022. We engaged extensively with Parliament throughout the negotiation process. For these deals, this included eight public progress reports during talks, including extensive information published at agreement in principle, and 12 sessions with the International Agreements Committee and the Commons International Trade Committee, both in public and in private with Ministers and/or officials, before and after signature. There were nine ministerial Statements—three oral and six written—and eight MP briefings, plus one on the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill.

A programme of statutory instruments has been put in place to implement the agreements to ensure that the UK is not in breach on its entry into force in the following areas: rules of origin and tariffs, intellectual property, government procurement, immigration rules changes, and, for the New Zealand FTA only, technical barriers to trade.

The Government have long acknowledged that, due to their length, complexity and importance, FTAs warrant a bespoke framework of scrutiny, and our full range of commitments is contained within the exchange of letters conducted last year between my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Grimstone, and the International Agreements Committee.

I turn to the specific issues raised by these amendments. It is the Government’s view that the amendments would require disproportionate scrutiny of the regulations to implement what Parliament has already had the opportunity to scrutinise, including through noble Lords’ scrutiny of this Bill. As it may be of interest to noble Lords, I can commit to sharing the draft procurement SIs ahead of Report. They will be in a draft version subject to change, due to consultations, as noble Lords can imagine, legal checks and recognising that the Bill is still undergoing scrutiny by your Lordships’ House. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, is satisfied by that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for those comments, and I will be happy to respond to both questions in writing. She raises the very important point that, to have security and trust in these free trade agreements, we need to know that they are properly policed and monitored. I am completely with her on this, and I hope the reassurances I have already given will be seen as significant and can be passed on to my noble friend in the detail that she requires.

If I may come to a conclusion, I thank noble Lords again for their contributions, but I hope I have demonstrated that these amendments are not necessary, and I hope that I have provided further reassurance to noble Lords today. I therefore ask that the amendments not be pressed.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I still have not heard what “different” means in Clause 2(1)(a). I do not need to know now, but if I do not hear by Report, I shall be tempted to join the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, in arguing that Clause 2 should not stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate the comment made by the noble Lord. I am told that it refers to Clause 1(1)(b), which says,

“otherwise for the purposes of dealing with matters arising out of, or related to, those Chapters.”

I am happy to have a more detailed conversation with the noble Lord about the specifics of the Bill at a later stage. As the noble Baroness mentioned, I have offered to all Members of this House to have one-to-one or group discussions about the agreement, and I have kept my diary open, but the meeting that I was so looking forward to last week was cancelled due to no one attending. I hope the next meeting that I arrange will have a few more people coming, since I look forward to the debate and am happy to be specific about the details.