Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Coaker

Committee stage
Thursday 20th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly appreciate the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Fox; I am so glad that he said that. I do not mind if some friction is sometimes required in order to make sure that the messages are heard loud and clear. I am glad that the noble Lord has reaffirmed his position, that of his party and that of the main opposition party. We all agree on this, but it is important because I was picked up on it today. It sounds as if we are at war with a legitimate sector and the legitimate concept of how to structure companies, which are at the very core of our capitalist system and have created so much wealth for us. I am glad that we are united on this point.

I was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, about the number of entities that have registered with the register of overseas entities. I have a figure of 27,000, which represents a high level of compliance. I hope that figure satisfies her request, but I would be happy to publish further figures or to answer her in writing on that.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I will just reinforce the point that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, made. To be honest, I do not think the Minister was implying that we were condemning the whole of business, but the noble Lord, Lord Fox, made an important point. The Committee is trying to say that, overall, we all support the Bill but we want to ensure that it is effective, understandable and enforced. In challenging the Government, we seek not to undermine business but to improve what most of us regard as a reasonable Bill.

The only other point I make to the Minister is that—I think we all accept this—public opinion is frustrated about what it sees as a lack of action in respect of certain bad business practices, such as the laundering of money. Lots of fraud and economic crime takes place but is not seen as a priority by the state—irrespective of whether you mean Labour, the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives, the Scottish nationalists or whoever—which does not take this seriously. I suggest to the Government that, if I were a government Minister, I would parade much more powerfully than the Government have done that we are trying to ensure that public anger is assuaged by the fact that we are no longer prepared to see Russian money used in the way it has been nor to see bad practice, which means, frankly, that good business is undermined.

This is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox. Good businesses, which represent the majority of the country, want something done about bad business because it undermines them. This is a really important point; I think it is the point that the Minister was trying to make. This is a good Bill but it needs to be improved. From what he has said to us, I think the Minister will take on board many of the comments that have been—and will be—made and change the Bill. But it is also about saying, “Of course the majority of business is good, but there is bad practice out there and it needs sorting out”. Good business wants that to happen as much as members of this Committee do.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I believe that I can confirm that but I will ensure that those facts are properly presented. It is clearly helpful for us to be specific on that.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

If somebody fails to comply properly with registering their PSC, that is a criminal offence, as I understand it. Can the Minister confirm that failing to register the PSC properly is a criminal offence? Secondly, what are the penalties for that offence?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am going through a slightly different point in this amendment, if the noble Lord will forgive me. I can confirm that it is a criminal offence. There is a published tariff that varies according to jurisdiction. If noble Lords do not mind, we will present that. I believe that there might be sections of the criminal tariffs in the Bill, but it is important as this is criminality. Perhaps one of the noble Lords in the Committee will be able to extract the tariff from the Bill but I will certainly write to noble Lords. They are significant penalties and fines; it is more than six months in prison in some jurisdictions. It depends on whether it is tried in Scotland and so on. I do not have all those details to hand but we will clarify that.

This is very serious. Criminality in the corporate world is an important element of what we are trying to prevent. As noble Lords know, we will discuss the “failure to prevent” principles in the next day of Committee. It changes significantly, as has been seen to be successful, in jurisdictions such as the United States of America. As the noble Lord has raised before in terms of public participation in our belief in a liberal, democratic, property-owning capitalist system, it is felt that, if we do not punish the perpetrators of financial crimes and it is felt that they are getting away with it, through either their being unable to easily prosecuted or their not being punished severely, it brings the system into disrepute and causes significant long-term philosophical and societal damage.

We look across the Atlantic at the United States and feel that it takes a different view. Financial crime is treated there as serious and significant crime, and commensurate penalties go with it. The case of Madoff was raised, where the initial tariff was a pretty significant landmark sentence—many hundreds of years, if I am not mistaken. It was certainly over 100 years or close to it, which obviously shows the principles by which that country approaches this point. While we are not operating under similar tariffs, it is important that we see criminal acts in financial crimes as significant. The tariffs around that need to reflect it, but I am happy to provide further information.

Perhaps I may finish this piece, because I hope it is relatively straightforward and that Committee members will be reassured by what we are doing. We will not support this amendment and I will ask the noble Lord to withdraw it, but the principles around making sure that we have transparency and identifiable actors in corporate structures are clearly made.

On the case of the two month-old married individual who was registered as a beneficial owner of the entity that my noble friend Lord Agnew cited, the point actually raised is that it has been recorded. It will certainly now be possible, if not essential—to some extent, with a situation as significant as that, it should have been possible—that Companies House now investigates that type of registered entry. I raise that in the sense that we are trying to ensure that the information is provided, which will set off alarm bells and allow for inquiry. We cannot prevent people from false entry. What we can do is to ensure that the penalties are there to discourage it, the investigative powers and data-scraping are sufficient to enable us to pursue it, and the data we have is clean and clear.

I do not have too long to go on these two amendments, if noble Lords will indulge me. I wish to stress to my noble friend Lord Agnew that this Government completely agree with the principle that we should have greater transparency over who is managing and controlling a limited partnership. There is much in this Bill which will achieve exactly that. The Bill includes a range of measures that will make it mandatory—I restate this—for limited partnerships to submit a much greater range of information about their partners, including their current and former names, addresses and dates of birth.

The general partners of limited partnerships will be required to have their identities verified. The PSC regulations apply to certain legal entities, including incorporated bodies such as companies and LLPs, and are about exposing who controls them. This can be otherwise unclear, given the corporate structure of those entities. While companies and partnerships share many similar characteristics, they are nevertheless fundamentally different. A limited partner, for example, does not have voting rights in the way that a shareholder does and, unlike an LLP, there is nothing in law which would force a limited partnership to have a written partnership agreement—I think this dates back to the 1880s—though many will have one.

As I have said, partnerships in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are registrable business relationships, not separate legal personalities. As such, they cannot be beneficially owned in the same way that companies and LLPs can. It would take a fundamental review of partnership legislation more broadly to apply beneficial ownership-style transparency measures to English and Welsh, and Northern Irish, limited partnerships in the way that my noble friend intends. For these reasons, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment but I am very comfortable about discussions to ensure that he and any other members of the Committee are comfortable that what we are doing achieves these ends.

Amendments 75 and 76, also tabled by my noble friend Lord Agnew, would require limited partnerships and limited liability partnerships to have at least one partner who is a natural person. The Government consulted extensively on the reforms to these corporate structures. It was clearly found that corporate partners can be a legitimate and critical part of certain UK fund structures, allowing them to operate effectively. While I understand the intent of these amendments and share the desire to tackle opaque chains of corporate partners in partnerships, as with companies, having discussed the principles of these structures, it is difficult to suggest that now would be an appropriate time to make such a change.

Clause 144 already contains powers which will enable restrictions to be placed on corporate partners, as with corporate directors of companies. However, limited partnerships and limited liability partnerships have very different corporate structures to companies. Therefore we must have careful consideration and consultation is needed before any restrictions are made.

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[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I will very briefly support the remarks made by the noble Lords, Lord Faulks and Lord Fox, and the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

I also broadly welcome the Minister’s amendments. I have just one question, on Amendment 77L, to which I am sure there is an easy answer. It says:

“In this Schedule ‘the relevant period’ means the period … beginning with 28 February 2022 … ending with 31 January 2023”.


How were those dates arrived at?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate the input of all noble Lords in this Committee. That period comprises the implementation, when the Act came into force, and the compliance date. Effectively, the law announced that you had to be compliant by a certain date. There is a seven-month lead-in time and the Government are concerned that people used that time to avoid the date at which they have to declare. We are, in effect, backdating the transparency, which is very sensible. I hope the noble Lord supports that.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate that comment; I had not thought about that. We have not done a government impact assessment that could be published, such as the ones relating to the trade Bills that I have worked on, but if we can provide useful feedback on how we have come to some of our conclusions it would be helpful to do that. I would have thought that, in the lead-up to this, noble Lords would have made inquiries from some of the key sectors to gain good information from them, as we have.

I know for a fact that not every element, clause or amendment has been specifically consulted on because that would be impractical but, broadly speaking, we have received a great deal of information, as I understand it. My noble friend Lord Leigh’s amendment, on the publication of auditor changes, which we discussed earlier, came from our consultation with whatever august body of auditors it was that we discussed. As all noble Lords here know, I am comfortable being as open as possible. However, if I may, I will bring us to a conclusion because I would like to finish our last piece of business today, without a cost to democratic scrutiny.

I will attend to the comment from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about Amendment 77AA. I refute his point that this information can be a year old because that cannot be the case. The application for removal must contain information about the state of affairs at the date of the application. I do not mean to be pugnacious, but I believe that I am correct in saying that, in terms of removal from the register, the information that the noble Lord wishes to see—as we do—to prevent exactly the sorts of things that he is talking about will be there. I am very happy to double-confirm after the debate that, broadly speaking, I am right in my commitment. I would not like to give false promises, but the assumption—I have been reassured by officials during this debate—is that we are in line.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

May I just make one point about process? I think my noble friend Lord Ponsonby made this point earlier, and we have just heard it again. On quite a large number of occasions the Minister has said that he will write, provide reassurances, come back to Peers, and share letters, information, how various conclusions have been arrived at and what consultations there have been. I know that the Minister and his officials will do that but, to help move us to Report, I ask them to reflect on how to do all that in as short a period of time as possible to allow those of us who want to to consider what happened in Committee and the various conclusions. That is important so that we have a manageable Report and we deliver the sort of Bill that we want.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for those points. As I have made clear, I hope noble Lords do not think that I am kicking the can down the road.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I honestly do not think that the Minister is doing that; I was just trying to stress to him the importance of that process.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Coaker

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly appreciate my noble friend’s intervention. I hope that I have made clear to the Committee the importance that this Government place on fighting economic crime.

If I may—I am not sure of the protocol—I wish to question my noble friend’s intervention. He said that the asset recovery incentivisation scheme has seen a considerable drop in the monies deployed to law enforcement over the recent period. However, I have a figure here: since 2006-07, just under £1.3 billion—that is based on nominal values and not adjusted for inflation—has been returned to Proceeds of Crime Act agencies to fund further asset recovery capability and work that protects the public from harm. In 2021-22, £354 million was recovered under the Proceeds of Crime Act, of which £298 million was paid into the ARIS pot. So I certainly will research the figures given to me by my noble friend.

The point is that we are looking to provide funding of £400 million over the spending review in order to focus on fighting economic crime. I am happy to have further debates around this issue but I hope that I have made my point in relation to these amendments, minimum fee levels and creating a fund out of the fees, which would be completely contrary to the ambitions that we have set in our legislation around Companies House.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I have to say that there is a bit of work to be done on this group of amendments before Report. The Minister certainly failed to convince me and I am sure he failed to convince many, if not everyone, on the Committee. There is a real problem here. There is a problem with raising the fee and what it should be. The Government say that it is a matter for us and then came up with the figure of £50, which I think is inadequate. There we go; there clearly needs to be discussion about that on Report. I take the point that a number of noble Lords have made that the fee is not just to fight economic crime but for the additional responsibilities that Companies House will have. That is very clear.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Coaker

Committee stage
Monday 27th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that comment, and I entirely agree that it would be extremely useful to have such a letter from the registrar. I take very seriously the comments about a cultural change at Companies House. We should be aware of where we are coming from. Not to repeat or labour the point, but Companies House is today simply a repository for information; it could practically be a static website. Having said that, in the conversations that I have had with Companies House, I have been very impressed by the tone of the officials I have spoken to there in terms of their determination to crack down on criminal activity around companies and Companies House. They currently make referrals to law enforcement agencies; they are not blind to the issues that present themselves, but they do not have the powers to do what we want them to do.

This Bill gives the registrar and her agents the concomitant powers to execute exactly on this mission that we wish. They talk boldly of a cultural change in Companies House, which we expect, as well as a technological change and a significant resource improvement—and under other amendments we will discuss the resourcing of Companies House. I feel confident that we are going to see a magnitudinous alteration in the relationship between the number of companies and number of directors performing their functions appropriately and providing relevant information to boost the economy, as soon as, or soon after, this Act is enabled—if I have got my terminology right.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I would be grateful for a clarification. Can the Minister say something about the language being used? My noble friend Lord Browne also picked up on this point. It is not that it is wrong, but why in Clause 1 do objectives 3 and 4, for example, talk about minimising risks or the extent? What I suggest in my amendment is acting proactively to prevent. It is about that sense of purpose and that cultural change, whereby the registrar actively seeks out unlawful activity and actively seeks to inform law enforcement to do something about it. It is not a clash of view but, in talking about cultural change, would not a language change help the Government in delivering what they want?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I do not want noble Lords at any point to think that I am being defensive in any way, as we are having a collaborative debate around the objectives of trying to improve company law and registration of companies and the integrity of the information stored at Companies House.

Objective 1 is pretty clear in referring to

“any person who is required to deliver a document to the registrar does so”,

and objective 2 is very clear and specific in saying

“to ensure that documents delivered to the registrar are complete and contain accurate information”.

They are unambiguous points—that is very clear. There is no question about there being some grey area around that. But with regard to objective 3 and

“creating a false or misleading impression to members of the public”,

clearly that is relatively subjective statement. It is clear that we have made efforts in this Bill to ensure that company names, for example, cannot be used to be misleading, and additional powers have been placed with the Secretary of State to ensure that companies have to change their names—but there is an element of subjectivity around a company name. To some extent, it is not totally prescriptive. Objective 4 then says,

“to minimise the extent to which companies and others … carry out unlawful activities, or … facilitate the carrying out by others of unlawful activities”.

These are complicated areas, in which, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, issues around forensic accounting, and so on, have been raised. Nothing is necessarily as straightforward as it seems. The principle here is to try to reduce the crime clearly to zero—so if the registrar reduced levels of criminal activity to a certain percentage, which they felt were somehow in a target range and then stopped their work, we would consider that to be entirely inappropriate. At the same time, they have a very clear objective, which is to minimise financial misconduct and criminality. That flexibility enables the registrar to perform her functions appropriately.