Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for the broader tidying up of the amendments in this group and by reflecting on the time, over several months, that we have been discussing these important issues. We must keep our eye on the scale of the issues that we are dealing with; they are immense, and they cost this country billions of pounds. We have a great deal to do to repair the UK’s reputation in the world, and I hope that we involved in this debate will all have our eyes on that prize.

I am pleased to say that we have seen some positive changes achieved through the passage of this Bill and a genuine appetite for change, as we experienced with our conversation with Companies House. We are going through an immense cultural change in the management of these affairs. As we know, it is the biggest shake-up for 170 years. I also pay tribute to everyone in the Chamber, and those who are not here today, for their diligence in the work that they have done, and to my colleagues in the other place, Dame Margaret Hodge and Seema Malhotra in particular. Months and months of work have gone into getting us to this place.

I am very grateful for the explanation that the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, gave. There is real recognition that there will be an ongoing need to scrutinise. I think we all accept the commitments in good faith, but we need to make it clear to Ministers and their officials that the interest is very live and that there will be close scrutiny as these matters roll up. Compromise has been reached on this—I accept that that is the reason we will not be taking the amendment to a vote—but we add our support to the ongoing scrutiny that will need to take place.

I also pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, for his persistence in this and his unique position having had experience in government, which has informed the approach he has taken and the concern that I think many would agree he has rightly raised. We are where we are—he has decided to accept the reassurances—but we also have an insight into those elephant traps that he referred to. I also reference the comments of my noble friend Lord Eatwell on the explicit need for vigilance.

With those comments, and thanking everyone for the spirit of compromise, I reassure everyone that we will look closely at this, and we very much hope that the measures being brought in today will be sufficient. We will look to those delegated powers that have been built in to make sure that, if change is necessary, it will indeed be made.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions, including the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for her extremely helpful and supportive comments about the overall debate. In her summation, she was right that we have, through a great degree of good faith among us all, come up with a very strong series of actions that will genuinely change the economic landscape in this country for the better.

I have had the privilege of working with my noble friend Lord Agnew for a number of months as we have come to today’s conclusion on these measures. I reiterate my personal commitment, and the commitment of this Government, to delivering on the thrust of his ambitions. On a process that came to light only recently—the issue of bulk data and its accessibility—I can commit that Companies House will do a review of how it can assess bulk data for the trusts’ information on the register of overseas entities once a consultation period has finished and it is deemed appropriate.

Ultimately, we are committed to greater transparency, and I am very grateful to my noble friend and noble Lords across the House for their understanding of our approach to how we can best achieve this without either endangering vulnerable minors or individuals or opening ourselves up to legal challenge which could derail many of the main principles of this part the Bill to which my noble friend is rightly keen to contribute.

Finally, I express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, who, from the very beginning, has been a tireless collaborator in creating—with his input across the board in this section of the Bill—a truly powerful piece of legislation. It was my own personal pleasure and pride to work with him as we have come to this conclusion, and I am very grateful to him for his understanding, again, of how we believe that we can achieve our shared ambitions in what we think will be the right way.

We have made some clear further commitments today—to which I would be delighted to be held to account by my noble friend Lord Agnew and all noble Lords in the House today—to make the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill the most effective legislation it can be. I therefore invite the House to agree the government Motions in this group.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

3rd reading
Tuesday 4th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his letter on the amendments tabled at Third Reading; it was very much appreciated. All of us involved fully understand the importance of transparency of ownership in Companies House and the register of overseas entities, issues we have revisited many times throughout consideration of the Bill.

Ensuring that complex, opaque structures cannot be built to hide economic wrongdoing is central to what we need this Bill to do. I appreciate the approaches taken in working with colleagues across the House to make sure that this important and complex Bill is as effective as possible at preventing economic crime and enforcing consequences for those who commit or facilitate it. However, as we have heard, other areas of the Bill need to be changed, as this House has agreed and as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, noted, particularly through his own amendments. I hope that Ministers will also hear those points as the Bill heads back to our colleagues in the other place.

I thank all the officials, whose diligence, work, unfailing response and willingness to talk to us throughout has been exemplary. I thank the Ministers for their patience and commitment to working with all parties across the House, in particular the noble Lords, Lord Johnson and Lord Sharpe, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy. We are very grateful for that commitment. I give special thanks to Clare Scally, who works in our office. Her tireless support and endless patience working through the various amendments is to be commended. She has kept us on the straight and narrow going through the various changes, which have been welcomed, in the main. I particularly thank my noble friends who have engaged in the debate, especially my noble friends Lord Ponsonby and Lord Coaker, who have given so much of their insight and expertise to help us move forward.

As we have heard today, there is no doubt that this Bill is in a better place than when we started. However, all of us, hand on heart, know that there is still much more to do, particularly in tackling the sheer scale of economic crime in this country. Many people who were not aware of that now are, and I believe that the demand for action will grow. I hope that our improvements to the Bill will have a swift impact on its legislative journey and really help the many victims who must remain at the heart of our considerations.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, before I conclude, I would just like to cover the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. If my memory is correct, Amendment 17 prevents the publication of a PSC whose identity has not been verified, so there is no conflict between the two. It is only right that people whose identity has not been verified is published. What is important about these additional amendments is that they ensure that you have to ascertain that you have no PSCs, or if the PSC has not been identified then the registrar is able to make further inquiries. They are not inconsistent and make a sound change to the Bill very much along the lines the noble Lord was recommending in the first place.

I thank the Opposition Front-Benchers, in particular the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds—a formidable Front Bench, if I may say—and the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I thank them for their engagement and constructive scrutiny of the Bill, as well as the enormous amount of time they dedicated to the various meetings ahead of each set of debates. It was a very valuable collaboration and I believe together in this House, we have formed a significant piece of legislation that all the peoples of the United Kingdom will benefit from.

I thank some of the other key contributors to this Bill. Many other noble Lords have been instrumental in the improvements made during its passage through this House, including the noble Lords, Lord Vaux of Harrowden and Lord Alton of Liverpool. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and I spent many hours working through this Bill, and if ever asked to point to the value of this great Chamber, it is exactly those constructive debates that I would point to. I am extremely grateful for his input and strong sense of collaboration.

Thanks must also go to my noble friends Lady Stowell of Beeston, Lady Morgan of Coates, Lord Leigh of Hurley—I have rightly described him as a “guru of finance”— Lord Sandhurst, and others for their input and constructive challenge. I also thank my noble friend Lord Agnew of Oulton, who has also engaged extremely constructively with me during this process, and my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier. Over recent months, we have had robust discussions and debates and I genuinely thank them for their engagement.

I must also thank the Whip, my noble friend Lord Evans of Rainow; the formidable team of Whips and officials; and my ministerial colleagues—my noble friends Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Minto, and my noble and learned friend Lord Bellamy—who have all done an excellent job when representing this Bill in the House in all debates over the last few months. The Bill is significant both in size and scope, spanning several departments.

This brings me to all the officials working across multiple departments behind the scenes supporting the ministerial team as we engaged and debated with noble Lords on the detail of the Bill; I extend true personal thanks and the thanks of my noble friend Lord Sharpe. I thank Louise Smyth, the registrar of Companies House, who will be taking many of the actions we are passing through this House in order to make Companies House function more effectively. She and her entire team have engaged consistently throughout this process, and we wish her the greatest of success in implementing this dramatic programme.

I thank the analysis, company law and corporate transparency team in my own Department for Business and Trade, headed especially ably by the deputy director, Matt Ray, and his head of policy, Steve Webster. I thank the criminal finances and asset recovery unit in the Home Office, excellently led by Maria Hannan. I thank Paul Rowlands, Lucy Chisholm, the hard-working legal teams in both departments—I can certainly attest to that—and the expert drafters from the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, particularly Diggory Bailey and Camilla Grundy. I thank my private office team, in particular, Emily Tranter and Simon Moore, who have supported me so much over these last few months. Finally, I thank the Bill team: Tom Ball, the Bill manager, and his fantastic team of Nicola Wallace, Anna Gray, Corrie Monaghan, Tim Holland, Sophie Curry, Monique Sidhu, Michael Tam and Carolin Grassmann. Everyone involved has demonstrated impressive levels of expertise, and I think I can speak for all Ministers when I say that we felt in safe hands. I am grateful for their proactive, patient and professional support throughout.

Finally, I thank the House authorities for managing the large number of amendments made in this House, and the parliamentary staff, the doorkeepers and clerks for their professionalism and continued support to the Bill and to your Lordships’ House.

To conclude, this Bill is a milestone piece of legislation, which will deliver major reforms to the framework for corporate criminal liability, improving the ability to hold corporations liable in their own right for economic crimes; the first serious reform of limited partnership law since 1907; the most significant changes to our system for setting up and maintaining companies since the 1850s; the first national legislation from any Government to take action against SLAPPs; and the legislative underpinning to tackle the new threats facing us in 21st century through action on crypto assets and improved data-sharing.

Economic crime affects every single one of us in different ways and at different scales. This Government are determined to tackle economic crime and drive out dirty money, protecting British citizens. We are ensuring that public agencies, law enforcement and the private sector have the tools needed to deliver greater protections for members of the public and businesses. As I have said on multiple occasions, the Government have been determined throughout that the Bill strikes the right balance in all areas between tackling criminality and avoiding undue burdens on the law-abiding majority. I remain keener than ever to get this important legislation on the statute books, and look forward to implementing the reforms that it contains when we reach Royal Assent. I beg to move.

Equipment and Protective Systems Intended for Use in Potentially Explosive Atmospheres Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2017 (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for the full explanation, which is very much appreciated, and those in the Room for their questions. A few things have been covered that I was going to pick up, and I do not have a great deal more to add. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, mentioned, I was intrigued by the arrangements of the health and safety aspects, particularly the responsibilities for the Secretary of State. I look forward to the answers on that. There are some interesting questions to answer around the consultation. With all these matters, some reassurance is needed on the changes around resources, how they will be managed and, particularly, how they will be monitored. I am sure that the Minister will pick up on the impact assessment in his closing remarks. The only other aspect is around whether there will be any impact on the way that implementation in Great Britain continues and whether this will have any particular impact on that: would there be any digression from the situation arising in Northern Ireland? With those comments, I look forward, with interest, to the Minister’s summing up.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords for their participation in the discussion on this statutory instrument. I will try to answer the questions raised in this debate, if I can.

I start with the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. I apologised to her in the Division Lobbies for not completely hearing her final question. My commitment here is to focus on the changes relating to these ATEX products, so she will understand if I am quite keen to focus specifically on this regulatory change. I am very aware of the other questions raised around this, particularly relating to the Windsor Framework.

I will cover two points on consultation and, to some extent, impact. We did not undertake a public consultation, given that the instrument’s provisions are limited to making amendments for the implementation of a Windsor Framework obligation and ensuring that Northern Ireland continues to implement EU-derived product safety requirements for ATEX goods. But we did have informal discussions around product sector legislation. As I understand it, these were held with over 4,000 businesses, including manufacturers, trade associations and industry representatives by means of a series of structured interviews. There were further discussions with the Northern Ireland civil servants, the department and the Ministry of Justice. These took place in the form of emails and telephone calls. There was some discussion around the process of this SI and who was effectively responsible for these regulations. That is one of the reasons why they have taken some time to come to noble Lords’ attention.

It is worth looking also at the impact on businesses themselves. We estimate that there are just under 5,500 businesses in the UK subject to ATEX regulations—anywhere between lower and upper bands of 5,000 and 6,000. We think that some businesses may incur costs associated with familiarisation of the new requirements and the labelling, but we believe that the impacts of these changes are expected to be very limited, and the expected net impact of these changes is estimated to be about £2.5 million of direct costs to businesses, most likely relating to familiarisation, among other things.

Officials in the Office for Product Safety & Standards will provide online industry guidance, which I mentioned earlier, to coincide with the instrument coming into force to ensure that businesses have all the information they need on how to comply with the new requirements, but I certainly note the well-made comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, about the importance of ensuring that the affected businesses are well signalled. Officials are also liaising with the Health and Safety Executive for Northern Ireland, which is responsible for enforcing the Northern Ireland ATEX regulations and ensuring they have all the necessary information on doing so.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

Report stage
Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I add my recognition to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for the extraordinary attention to detail and persistence that she has shown in taking forward this very important issue. I know that the Minister will talk to us about the review that is coming in, but there still remain certain aspects that could be brought in immediately—for example, an expectation that every company at least has a policy on whistleblowing. We do not have to wait for a review to achieve that.

We have heard some extraordinary testimony through the debates on the Bill, and the real heartache and personal cost that have befallen people who have not had a good experience. As the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, said, too many people wait until their job or career comes to an end before they give any details, if they do at all, on the issues that concern them.

This is an extraordinarily important issue. We need to make sure that the pressure is on. I ask the Minister to give us some reassurance about the review, what will happen when it is concluded, and what the mechanism will be to make sure that its findings are put into practice.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Johnson of Lainston) (Con)]

Before I speak to the amendment in this group, I draw your Lordships’ attention to my interests as set out in the register.

I turn to Amendment 136. I personally thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for raising the very important matter of whistleblowing. I have been extremely grateful for the time that she spent with me ahead of this debate, and look forward to continuing being an important conduit for her into the Government, trying to seek a good resolution around the noblest of intentions. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lady Altmann and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, as always, for their useful, contributory, collaborative comments.

This Government recognise how valuable it is that whistleblowers are prepared to shine a light on wrongdoing and believe that they should be able to do so without fear of recriminations. This entire process fits within the spirit of the ECCT Bill. I pay tribute to the courage displayed by individuals who blow the whistle on wrongdoing.

I appreciate that there is real strength of feeling on this topic, but the Government’s position is still that it is premature to make legislative change ahead of the review of the whistleblowing framework, which has been mentioned in this debate. The Government recognise that there are different proposals for an office for the whistleblower, and the roles and functions that such a body could have.

The office risks duplication and confusion within the established whistleblowing framework. It is not necessarily clear how the office would interact with the existing prescribed persons, many of whom have regulatory powers in specific sectors. It may duplicate their role and responsibilities. It is also not clear how the office would interact with the current approach to detriment protection for whistleblowers and the role of the employment tribunal, and how whistleblowers and employers would be affected.

Secondly, there is an issue around the costs associated with establishing and running a body. It is not clear how the body would be funded, and we should think very carefully before committing taxpayers’ money, even though this is clearly a very important cause that deserves significant amounts of attention.

Finally, I would not want the Government to take such a dramatic step before they have fully considered the effectiveness of our existing framework as well. As I am sure noble Lords would agree, it would be premature to make legislative change before the ongoing review of the whistleblowing framework has concluded and the Government have assessed the evidence.

It is worth pointing out that we were one of the first countries to introduce a whistleblowing framework, and our framework is well established. Internationally, we are regarded as a leader in whistleblowing policy and our framework has been used as a model for other jurisdictions, such as Australia and Ireland. The whistle- blowing framework recognises that workers are actually the first line of defence for employers to detect and take action where wrongdoing is taking place or has the potential to do so. Workers who believe that they have been dismissed or otherwise detrimentally treated for making a protected disclosure can make a claim to the employment tribunal, which can award unlimited compensation.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

Report stage
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Ministers for their regular updates, and the access we have had to their officials. The ability to meet the team from Companies House was particularly helpful and instructive. I too believe that we have a better Bill before us.

Having said that, we must not forget the scale and severity of the consequences of actions of bad actors, particularly the exposure of the public to fraud, nor the victims, who have suffered so appallingly over many years. As we know, the Ukraine war has brought all these issues to a head, necessitating a swift response. I thank everyone involved for responding positively to some of the many proposals that we have put forward.

I will refer particularly to Amendment 2, with regard to the fourth objective. It would be wrong of me not to mention the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, as has been mentioned, was very forceful in his views that the objective surely must be to prevent unlawful activities rather than to minimise them, as was the earlier wording. I also welcome the change to the third objective, and the increase in the ability of the registrar to strike off companies and take swift action. Again, I think that running through this is the emphasis on the ability to act quickly with clarity.

I acknowledge the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, which would bring in a framework of intervention criteria to assist the registrar, and particularly Amendment 57, which recognises the sheer scale of the task ahead of Companies House and seeks full, regular scrutiny. I want to put on record our concern about the sheer scale of the task ahead of Companies House and make it plain that we must communicate to everyone involved that there is a fallback position and that it can come back if the resources are not adequate for the job it has in hand. The scale of change it has to go through, from being a receiver of information to a proactive partner, is quite significant.

I again thank the Ministers involved for their openness and for having moved on a number of our suggestions.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who participated in this debate. I shall answer their questions in order.

The financial guru, my noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley, pointed to Amendment 40. He is right that it does not specifically mention submitting misleading information—this is related specifically to the filing of accounts—but I believe that the Companies Act enables the Secretary of State to issue a winding-up order if there are materially inaccurate filings in the accounts. I am happy to write to him specifically on that issue.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Agnew for his comments. I am extremely pleased to come back to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, about the objectives. We had long and specific discussions about the difference between the words “minimise” and “prevent”. I think the House understood clearly from my approach that I was being carefully guided by our legal advisers. It is right that we should be, and it is also right that we found a word that would be suitable in how the noble Baroness saw the Bill being presented. We want to make sure that we get the language right. It is important that we have remained in our current function to ensure that there is flexibility for the registrar to perform her duties while at the same time sending the appropriate signal.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, rightly commented on the need to continue to review the situation as we see it. I hope that the noble Baroness has been reassured by my attitude to the Bill as it has progressed through the stages in this House. My point was to ensure that we do not deluge businesses with unnecessary obligations at this stage before we know how this process will transpire. I am also very aware of the dangers of being too prescriptive. Technology changes and the activities of criminals change, and it is important that we assess the situation as it stands and work out how to ensure that we can confront those challenges as and when they arise.

I turn specifically to the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Agnew, Amendment 57. Reporting by Companies House is an extremely important element of its activities, and I agree that it is important that Parliament is informed about the implementation and delivery of the reforms that we are undertaking. That is why the Government brought forward an amendment in the other place to that effect, which is now Clause 187. I am aware of the comments made about the cultural and operational changes linked to Companies House’s new responsibilities. I hope that through meeting the registrar we felt a sense of reassurance that the head of investigations is extremely dedicated to his task. We believe that the amount of money we are applying to Companies House and the fees, which we will discuss later, will amply cover expenditure, and could be increased if necessary. It is up to Companies House to ensure that it presents to the Government its funding requirements to ensure that it can do its job and perform its tasks.

It might be helpful for me from the Dispatch Box to go through some of the points formally so there is a record of what we expect Companies House to report when it has finished reporting on what it is intending to do—the inputs—and then turn our attention to the outputs, which is the difference between what it is obliged to report to Parliament for the first three years of operation, I think, and what we then expect to be business as usual.

From the discussions with Companies House to date, I can commit that, subject to the successful implementation of the necessary information systems, early reports will cover items such as: the number of documents rejected for not being properly delivered or for a discrepancy; rejected incorporations and name changes; the number of documents removed from the register for being inaccurate, incomplete or fraudulent; and the number of times the querying power is used and the resulting actions taken by Companies House. We are also looking into how we might report on the number of times Companies House has shared data with other organisations and vice versa. I would be happy to explore with Companies House officials how they might incorporate some of the new items in this amendment into its reporting without the need for this statutory requirement, and of course we listen to all sides of the House about other areas where noble Lords feel it would be beneficial for Companies House to report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his comments on the government amendments. We support Amendments 16, 17 and 19. They would significantly help improve the integrity of the register. This issue has been raised in amendments throughout the passage of the Bill. While we welcome many of the other changes that the Government have made and the manner in which they have collaborated with colleagues to make the Bill stronger, the issue of nominees represents a weak point in the Bill. We must know which bad companies and actors are acting fraudulently in order to fight fraud, corruption and economic crime.

A point that has repeatedly been made is that, as things stand, shareholder information is incomplete. It is difficult to identify the real owners of certain companies, which reduces the reliability of shareholder information published by Companies House, which we are all determined to improve. That undermines the corporate register as a whole.

As I said, we support Amendments 16, 17 and 19. I was struck by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, about the cost of fraud to the economy, which we need to keep front of mind when we are told to be concerned about the cost of putting these measures in place. I confirm that, if the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, is minded to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 16, these Benches will support him.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, and my noble friend Lord Agnew of Oulton for their amendments. If noble Lords allow me to, I will just set the scene.

We have made some significant advances in understanding who is behind a company and who is running these organisations, which is at the core of these measures. By understanding who the people with significant control are, we will be able to crack down on crime and the dirty money going through the system. That is at the core of it, as far as we are concerned; any other changes around that are fundamentally peripheral.

On a comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, a nominee is obliged to declare if they acting on behalf of a person with significant control, as is the company collecting the data. If they are acting as a nominee in a collective way to achieve a threshold of 25% or above, or acting as a person of significant control, that nominee has to declare themselves a person of significant control. There is no additional benefit from changing the rules to see how people who stand as nominees are listed as such. It is important for me, for Companies House, for this Government, for the House and, frankly, to reduce crime with this Bill to understand who is behind the companies, and these measures do that.

My concern, if we try to track every move, is that we will bring into the criminal and penalties regime a large number of people who do not necessarily know that they have to register—for example, if they are a registered nominee on behalf of a very small shareholder. We are concerned that we may go too far at this stage. We need to see how the work that Companies House does develops before expanding the regime.

I stress that the work that we have done on PSCs is at the core of the Bill. Most of the government amendments reframe the existing PSC information gathering and disclosure rules to make them clearer and to work more effectively with a centrally held PSC register. This may be covered a little later, but it is worth noting that it is not necessarily for the company to hold the register of PSCs any more; the registrar will now hold this information centrally.

The amendments we are proposing make provision to require more information to be provided by UK companies concerning the transparency of their ownership, including full explanations to be given by companies which claim they are exempt from the PSC requirements, and for notifications to be made to the registrar where a company believes it has no PSC. That is a relatively unique point but it is certainly possible, and so the company has to then explain why it has none. Every company will have a person of significant control listed and registered de facto; if it does not, it will have to explain why that is the case.

My noble friend Lord Agnew rightly pointed out that the average number of shareholders is two—I think it is actually 2.2. If you look at the 4.8 million or so companies that are registered and add up the numbers of companies with one, two or three shareholders, from memory—no doubt my officials will correct me—you would account for 80% of all companies, at around 4.1 million or 4.2 million. Some 3.7 million companies are held by one shareholder, who will automatically be a person of significant control. If you have two shareholders, the assumption is that you will probably have two shareholders with significant control, and so on. You are looking at a relatively small number of shareholders in the 10 million or so shareholders of the 4.8 million or so companies who would not necessarily fall, specifically and immediately, without debate, into the PSC legislation.

I turn to Amendments 19 and 16, put forward by my noble friend Lord Agnew and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. I have some specific text about the improvements we are going to make to the Bill, and I will read it out to make sure I get the wording right on what we believe we can take to Third Reading. I stress that we welcome greatly the work we have done in this area, and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, sees the spirit with which I have entered into the debate, particularly around the issue of classifying who is a nominee and who is not. The Government have great sympathy with the intention around that, and I will come on to talk about it in a moment.

As I say, these amendments are not ones that we would be keen to accept. I do not believe they achieve their intent, and they risk disproportionate burdens on legitimate actors and Companies House. The Government considers that further amendment is not warranted because the provisions in the person with significant control framework already require the whole process of disclosure of a PSC behind a nominee. To reaffirm, if a nominee does not declare that they are acting on behalf of a PSC, or becomes a PSC on account of their nominee holdings, then they are committing an offence. I believe the company is also required to collect the information, so there are a number of tiers around this structure.

I emphasise to noble Lords one more time how the existing requirements achieve what we in this House want to achieve. Where a company sees that it has a shareholder with over 25% of the shares or voting rights, or otherwise knows or has reasonable cause to believe the shareholder may fall under the definition of a PSC, the company is obliged to check with the shareholder whether they are in fact a PSC, and the shareholder is obliged, on pain of criminal sanction, to respond.

It is worth mentioning to the House that we talk at length about the 25% threshold but, as the House well knows, a person with significant control can own one share in a shareholding of a billion shares and would still be registered as the PSC if they controlled the business. This legislation is quite well crafted, if I may say so, to ensure that we catch the people who are exercising control over these businesses.

I repeat that the shareholder is obliged, on pain of criminal sanction, to respond. If the person responds to deny that they are a PSC, despite meeting the share-ownership voting rights threshold for qualification, the implication is that they are holding the shares as a nominee for a PSC. Under the Bill, shares held by a person as nominee for another are treated as held by that other and not by the nominee for the purposes of assessing who a company’s PSCs are. That is an important point, and I hope it gives noble Lords some reassurance.

The Bill gives companies the power to require third parties to provide information about the PSC they are holding the shares for. The nominee commits an offence if they fail to respond or give a false statement in response. Amendments I will bring forward at Third Reading will make it easier to prosecute these offences—I will come on to this momentarily. The Government’s position is that it would not be proportionate to require all shareholders to state whether they are nominees or to provide information about who they are holding the shares for. If a company had cause to believe a minority shareholder knew who its PSCs were, the company already has the power to require the shareholder to provide that information.

If noble Lords’ proposals became law, they would be difficult to enforce effectively, and it is unlikely that bad actors would comply with the new requirements. This measure would create a large and expensive haystack with few, if any, needles to find inside. It would therefore serve only to impose new undue burdens on the law-abiding majority, which the Government are actively seeking to avoid. As several noble Lords heard directly from Companies House executives earlier this month, gathering more and more information on shareholders would risk diverting its resources away from material intelligence work and more harmful cases and into more administrative work. An important point to emphasise is that we want Companies House to focus on running an effective companies register and on catching the criminals who are abusing our system.

I am sure that noble Lords who have greater experience than me in this House—looking around, I cannot see one with less experience sitting on the Benches—will know that, if we make too prescriptive legislative statements for these operational entities, they can easily become distracted by the minutiae to try to get to the nth degree and, because of the implementation of the legislative processes placed upon them, not necessarily focus on the core tasks. I repeat again my sympathy and empathy with noble Lords putting these amendments forward. However, I am extremely concerned that they would place undue burdens on individuals, and in particular on Companies House, which would then be distracted from its duties. At the same time, we believe that we have brought in a strong framework which will ensure that we deter crime while allowing legitimate businesses to function.

I appreciate noble Lords’ concerns that the current framework may not always lead to the disclosure of all PSCs, and that having further information about minority shareholders acting as nominees could in theory be useful to help flush out undeclared PSCs. However, the Government’s position is that there is no evidence that any additional benefit would outweigh the costs to all companies and that the totality of measures in the Bill, such as the registrar’s new objectives and powers, will serve better to deter non-compliance and flush out such persons.

I now come to the undertaking to bring forward amendments at Third Reading. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has stressed the importance of the transparency of ownership and control of companies. The Bill already makes great strides forward in this area, as I am sure the noble Lord knows. However, after further review of the PSC framework and the changes made to it by the Bill, the Government have identified a number of necessary improvements, and I undertake to bring forward amendments to address this at Third Reading.

The current legislation allows companies to maintain their own PSC registers and to then notify the registrar of changes to those locally held registers. The Bill changes that framework so that after it is brought into force the registrar will maintain a central PSC register for all companies. Most of the amendments will reframe the existing PSC information-gathering and disclosure rules to make them clearer and work more effectively with a centrally held PSC register.

The amendments will include provisions which will enable those persons thought to be PSCs to confirm that they are, and to confirm their details before those are published. The amendments will also make provision to require more information to be provided by UK companies concerning the transparency of their ownership, including for explanations to be given by companies which claim they are exempt from the PSC requirements, and for notifications to be made to the registrar where a company believes it has no PSC. The amendments will align the drafting of false statement offences relating to the PSCs of UK companies with other similar offences in the Bill.

I regret that these amendments could not be finalised for Report, but, given the strength of feeling that noble Lords have demonstrated today on ensuring that this legislation is as robust as possible, I trust they will welcome them. We of course stand ready to engage with noble Lords on these amendments ahead of Third Reading.

Finally, on Amendment 17, put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, my officials have analysed what the cost to businesses would be should identity verification requirements extend beyond directors, PSCs and filers. As I mentioned to noble Lords, the individuals—as in the numbers of companies covered—will be broadly covered, in my estimation, to the tune of about 80% of the number of people who are single shareholders or shareholders of companies containing one, two or three, and then of course all the other companies, in theory except in rare circumstances, would have PSCs associated with them. The verification process will be deep and significant, and will cover many millions of people who will be required to formalise their identity through these processes.

This analysis estimates that introducing identity verification for all shareholders in non-traded companies could have a net annual direct cost to business of up to around £150 million. I will say that again, so that noble Lords may hear it: we believe that these measures, if introduced, could have a net annual direct cost to business of up to around £150 million. The costs and methodology have been published on GOV.UK, and I am happy to share them directly with noble Lords, if that would be of use.

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[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I rise just to add our support for the amendments. I emphasise the concern that has been raised in Amendment 93 from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, in terms of recognising the significant function that HMRC has. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, with interest. I think there is some issue with looking at the two functions equally and making sure there is no conflict between them.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken during this debate, and I am grateful, personally, for the kindness they have shown to me as a new Minister on this Bill over the last few months. I am grateful for the high degree of collaboration and the sense of common purpose that all Members of this House have shown in trying to create a truly effective Bill to change—after 170 years—Companies House and what it can do for companies and to eradicate crime at the same time. I thank all noble Lords, my officials and the Government for the work we have done together.

However, we have not finished; we are only half way through. I thank my noble friend Lord Agnew for his Amendment 33. I appreciate the strength of feeling, but we would not wish to impose a duty on Companies House to carry out, as he has described, risk assessments. All ACSPs must be supervised for anti-money laundering purposes, and supervisors will already carry out risk assessments on them. I am aware of the concerns surrounding the supervisory regime, and I can confirm that the Treasury will publish a consultation on its structural reform. I believe this is to take place within the next month, which is very important and will be welcomed by this House and help inform further debate.

As I have just set out, the Government have tabled amendments to strengthen the ACSP regime, enabling Companies House to act if it has knowledge that a person is not fit and proper to carry out the functions of an ACSP, and to strengthen the registrar’s powers to request information. We are enabling the registrar to focus her attention on high-risk ACSPs rather than making it a duty to do so. A duty would reduce her operational flexibility—for example, inadvertently preventing her spot-checking the identity verification done by lower-risk ACSPs. We engaged with the registrar fruitfully on this subject only a few weeks ago. It is for these reasons that I urge my noble friend not to move his amendment.

I turn to Amendment 93. While the Government agree wholeheartedly on the crucial role that supervision must play in tackling economic crime, we are not keen to support this amendment. Under money laundering regulations, HMRC already has anti-money laundering supervisory functions and it takes them very seriously. HMRC is one of 25 supervisors of the money laundering regulations, alongside the Financial Conduct Authority, the Gambling Commission, and 22 accountancy and legal professional bodies. HMRC supervises around 30,000 businesses across nine sectors.

HMRC’s anti-money laundering supervisory function is resourced through the fees that it collects from the businesses it supervises, and these fees are solely for use by HMRC’s anti-money laundering supervisory function. HMRC attaches great importance to its anti-money laundering work, including its supervisory function. For example, in 2022-23, HMRC carried out over 3,200 anti-money laundering compliance interventions, including desk-based reviews and face-to-face visits. It also refused 439 applications to register from businesses considered inappropriate or unsuitable. The number of staff working on supervisory activity has more than doubled from 197 in 2018 to 397 in 2023; in 2022-23, they issued a total of 770 penalties, totalling £5.5 million. Specifically, £1.2 million of this amount came from trust or company service providers.

HMRC also works to help businesses understand the risk of money laundering. In 2022-23, its relevant web pages saw nearly 475,000 hits and it issued 850,000 alerts to businesses telling them about changes to law, inviting them to webinars or raising awareness of emerging risks.

The proposed amendment would duplicate the work that HMRC already does. It could make HMRC responsible for all anti-money laundering supervision, when Regulation 7 of the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 states that certain persons are subject to supervision by certain supervisors. For example, it states that

“the FCA is the supervisory authority for … credit and financial institutions”.

So it would not make sense to mandate that HMRC supervises them. HMRC would not necessarily have the expertise that it would need to supervise all sectors—for example, lawyers or large-scale financial institutions—and it would cut across existing regulatory relationships such as those between the banks and the FCA.

In conclusion, I urge noble Lords once more to support the government amendments that I outlined earlier, which address specific concerns raised during our debates. I believe they will deliver our shared ambition for a robust ACSP framework.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

Committee stage
Thursday 20th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I will respond to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, in moving his Amendment 68. I was very struck, looking back at the comments from Second Reading. He very forcibly talked about the international dimension and how important it is, and the fact that the international dimension in the Bill generally is thin; I think those were the words he used. I think we all knew that we would require amendments to look at this area. I am keen to understand from the Minister what actually is being proposed.

We talk a great deal about collecting data, but one of the rules of thumb I have always worked with is that data is of use only if it is open and transparent, there is a responsibility for the data to be analysed and, where things are held up as being untoward, appropriate action is taken.

I do not want to draw out the debate, but this could be an opportunity for the Minister to give us an update about the progress made since the Government launched the register of overseas entities on 1 August. What is the Government’s assessment of the success of the register and of the beneficial ownership registration being set at 25%? Do we know whether many companies are avoiding this by spreading out shares throughout a family? We know that there were significant concerns about nominee arrangements being used to disguise true beneficial owners. What is the Government’s assessment of this, now that the register has been introduced, and will they use the regulation-making powers in the existing economic crime Act to address this?

I anticipate a full response to the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. I would like to understand and am seeking reassurance that the Government are putting arrangements in place. As we have heard, the scale of the co-operation is quite significant. It needs constant review, and it needs to relate to finance, trade and crime. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Johnson of Lainston) (Con)]

I thank noble Lords very much. It is a great pleasure to be here again to continue this valuable and important inquiry into how to make our company structures more transparent, fairer and more effective for our long-term business needs.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, for this amendment. Over the next few hours, I hope to cover many of the points raised and clarify further points from our discussions earlier this week. Specifically on this amendment, I hope it will be of some reassurance to noble Lords that Companies House already has excellent relationships with overseas counterparts—it is important to emphasise that. It works closely with authorities in the Crown dependencies and overseas territories on the implementation of the register of overseas entities.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, asked about the progress of the register of overseas entities in relation to UK companies and, specifically, property ownership. We have come a long way: I think we are now 75% to 80% registered. Some overseas entities have not fulfilled our requirements, and I am happy to send a note to Peers about that. This changes regularly but it is a minority, which is important. I am pleased about that, and we are grateful for the collaboration of the Crown dependencies and overseas territories.

As a government Minister it is important that I say that, if you listened only to this debate and did not have any experience of the outside world, you may be forgiven for thinking that every single authorised corporate service provider, Crown dependency and overseas entity was somehow engaged in and designed for criminal undertakings, which we all know is not the case. It is important that I state that many of these measures and the discussions we are having are about a very small minority of bad actors and that the overall industry is worth while and valuable. The principles around high-quality corporate service provision, Crown dependencies managing their own affairs and how companies are structured are very much to be celebrated and embedded. What we are doing here is making sure that there is transparency and legitimacy. I want to make sure that is on the record.

Earlier today I met a former regulator from one of our Crown dependencies, who was surprised at the tone that some noble Lords are taking in the debate, given what he had done with his own regulator in his Crown dependency. He felt that it had set the standard—a higher standard, maybe, than some other Crown dependencies. He felt that they had lessons to teach us in the United Kingdom. We ought to be aware of this. I do not want to belabour the point, but it is important to get the tone right and make sure that the messages are clear.

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[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

To follow on from those comments, my comment will be very much in the same vein. We need to bring this part of the conversation into the general understanding that if we are to be successful, there has to be a root and branch reform of Companies House and the way in which it works. We need a massive cultural shift. Moving away from being a passive receiver of information to a dynamic analyser of data will be quite a step. It speaks to the need for resource to make sure that everything we are doing can be delivered. I emphasise the comments that have been made: of course we want this to succeed, but I am sure that everyone will understand our calling for more information and calling out opportunities to improve what is before us. Significant improvements can be made as we move forward.

Following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, said, we need to make sure that we do not follow the law of unintended consequences by introducing new measures and then creating new loopholes which will let bad actors fall through the net. We need to triple-check everything proposed through these measures to ensure that that cannot happen. As we have all said throughout this debate, the best way is to make sure that the data is transparent and can be viewed and seen. There have to be ways to introduce safeguards so that sensitive matters can be protected as and when they occur. It cannot be outside the bounds of possibility to make these improvements and move forward in a way that gives greater protection to all those involved.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for those well-expressed sentiments. I hope the Committee knows my passion for these important reforms. I apologise for not declaring my interests at the beginning of this debate, as I should have. We have had so many different meetings it is easy to forget. It is important that I declare them because I do own companies, I have set companies up and I have been a participant in LLP structures and so on—although I do not believe I am now; please refer to my entry in the register. There is no conflict in my mind; if anything, I hope that gives me quite a good perspective on how these structures can be used for good but also by bad actors.

On the importance of eradicating corruption in our economy, there is, potentially, no greater value that a person can engage in than allocating capital to the highest point of return. That may sound a bit cynical and clear-cut but the point is that the effective functioning of our economy is what gives us the goods, services and quality of life that allow us to exist in harmony and happiness. Corruption, which we are trying to eradicate, is extremely invidious in allowing us to have successful economic growth and, in many cases, it is invisible. It is also assumed to be victimless, which is not the case: it is highly corrosive to our economy and every crime has a victim, even if they are not immediate or apparent.

Our determination to eradicate corruption and economic crime is at the core of our agenda to make our economy work better to provide better lives for our citizens. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, raised a good point when he said that the public demand this. That is absolutely right. If one believes, as I do, in business and capitalism, and the power of capitalism to do good, if it is being distorted, that destroys our foundation and means that we do not have the true legitimacy to carry on effectively legitimate affairs, because they are conflated with illegitimate affairs.

I am completely dedicated to this mission and am grateful to all noble Peers. I am very glad that we have put on record our group support, if I can call it that, for an industry that, as we have discussed, is incredibly valuable and performs enormously important functions for companies that work in it. It is important; I am happy to state that.

Given this opportunity, I will go back over some of the statistics. The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, raised the issue of compliance. This has been well flagged; there was an assumption, perhaps, that the compliance rate is low. It has taken time for these overseas entities to register themselves. The population of entities in scope is around 32,000 but it is assumed that some of them—perhaps as much as 10%; let us say around 2,500—are dormant, defunct, in the process of being wound up or just part of the general churn of overseas entities. We now have 28,000 entities that have complied with our requirements; that is a high level if one assumes that, as I said, 2,500 or so are probably part of natural churn. So we are already looking at a non-compliance rate of maybe 1,500 to 2,000 companies out of 30,000—I know that I am making estimates; I would be happy to write to the Committee with specific numbers.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate the noble Lord making that comment, which I will come on to but, if the Committee does not mind, I would like to correct some of my statistics. Slightly fewer than 28,000 of our overseas entities have registered, although it is very nearly that. My officials want me to be accurate, so that I never mislead this august Committee. I should also be specific about the PSC regime relating to registered overseas entities. As noble Lords know, but were kind enough not to pick me up on, they have a separate regulatory regime, which is similar to it but not actually called that. I apologise and hope that has been corrected.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

It would be helpful if we were regularly updated on the number of overseas entities that have registered, with a running total. Otherwise, we keep having to come back and it is not clear where we are in the process.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

I would also be grateful if the Minister could answer the question about whether there is a process for privacy.

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[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

With apologies, as I am not sure whether this is an appropriate time to raise this, but given that our amendment refers to the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act, perhaps the Minister can explain what sensitive negotiations and discussions, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, mentioned, have taken place and the reasons for the disappointing progress. It would be helpful to have a better understanding of why we have not been able to progress.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly appreciate the noble Baroness’s comment. I would be delighted to go through this in as much detail as I can. I am very aware, as a Minister in the department and someone guiding this legislation through, as a Peer in this House and as a member of the public, of the issues the Crown dependencies and overseas territories have when it comes to reputational issues surrounding financial probity. It has been well reported and widely discussed. I am very happy to comment on that and to come back to the Committee with more information on the specific work we are doing.

If noble Lords allow me to go through my notes, I should be able to answer some of the questions. I am very grateful to the Committee for the complimentary clerking advice we received from my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, although, since they both seem to have been educated in exactly the same way, I am not quite sure why they did not both have the same answer. That might be something to revisit.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Wallace, who I have named in my brief, for their amendments; of course, the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, spoke to her part. Before I respond to the amendments, it will be useful for me to set out the long-standing constitutional relationship that exists between the UK Government and the Crown dependencies and overseas territories, although I do not want to repeat the very helpful comments made by noble Lords, particularly my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier.

The Crown dependencies and overseas territories are not part of the UK. It may seem obvious to state that, but it is very important. They are separate jurisdictions with their own democratically elected Governments responsible for their domestic affairs, including in these areas. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, raised the National Security Bill, which I am advised would be more relevant since we are responsible for the national security of the Crown dependencies and overseas territories, or at least many of them—I am receiving reassuring nods. It would have been appropriate, in that instance, for there to have been some mention of them in the legislation. I will explain why there is no mention of the Crown dependencies and overseas territories in this Bill.

I make very clear my sympathy with the principles expressed in this debate. I cannot remember the exact phrase that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, used because the metaphor was very mixed, but it was something about there being no point shutting the stable door if we leave the barn door open. I very much agree with that principle; it would seem peculiar to go to all these lengths to make our system right if there were a backdoor through a Crown dependency or overseas territory, but I do not believe that will be the case. I assure the Committee that anything that happens in the UK has to have the additional level in terms of the equivalent regulatory framework to the PSC register, whatever the framework is so called, and so on.

We have a great deal of protection around us, but we should be aware of the fact that the Crown dependencies and dependent territories make their own laws in these areas. There is a well-established constitutional convention that the UK does not legislate for the Crown dependencies on domestic matters or otherwise intervene without their consent, except in very limited circumstances. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, would be comfortable talking to this, but it really is in very limited circumstances. We should be aware of that and very respectful of it, since we do far better collaborating in a more powerful way to ensure that our frameworks are meshed together so that we learn from and support each other rather than being heavy-handed, even in this specific and practical sense. Furthermore, the UK Government also recognise the long-established practice that the UK does not legislate on domestic responsibilities for the overseas territories without first consulting them, other than in exceptional circumstances.

I am grateful for the thrust of these amendments. On Amendment 73A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, I am aware that beneficial ownership registers in British Overseas Territories and Crown dependencies have long attracted significant interest from across the House, as I said earlier, and in general from the public. But it is worth mentioning that, when these types of amendment were tabled to Bills several years ago, we were in a very different place. The point is that all inhabited overseas territories and the Crown dependencies have now committed to introduce publicly accessible registers of company beneficial ownership.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

Committee stage
Monday 27th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for speaking in this debate and for tabling Amendment 13, to which I will now respond. All these amendments are concerned with directions issued to a company by the Secretary of State requiring it to change its name under provisions already in the Companies Act 2006 and added to that Act by virtue of the Bill.

I am very sympathetic to some of the background comments relating to this amendment, but we feel that it is better to allow an element of flexibility around the time it takes a company to change its name. There is already a 28-day target point, and it is right that the Secretary of State has the opportunity to extend that.

Noble Lords in the Committee who have been involved in company management will know that sometimes, in order to have a formal resolution, there are certain requirements of notice periods for boards, which can be 30 days. For the businesses I have been involved in, that tended to be common practice; you can have a special resolution, but it is more important that the change happens and that we do not necessarily set arbitrary timelines, which could cause other issues at a later date.

I am very comfortable with having a further discussion with the noble Baroness and her colleagues about this in case something has been missed in the debate. Ultimately, I believe that we have set the right level of activity requirements and that allowing the Secretary of State to have the flexibility would be more appropriate given the ambitions we are trying to achieve.

The second element of the amendments—I am not sure whether they were spoken to, but they were certainly proposed so it is worth covering them briefly because they are part of the debate—is the requirement for the Secretary of State to publish details of any directions. Directions are issued to companies by the Secretary of State rather than the registrar so they do not form part of the company register, which is a record of information provided to the registrar by companies and material issued to companies by the registrar. We do not believe it would be appropriate to depart from that principle. However, to repeat commitments made at earlier stages of the Bill, we would be happy to examine on a case-by-case basis the appropriateness of annotating the register where name change directions have been issued. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the Minister. I was indeed referring to all the amendments in the group. I note his offer of further conversations to make sure that we have absolutely nailed down the clarification that we are seeking and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate that comment. I will come back to the noble Lord with more detail, if that is possible.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their comments, and I thank the Minister for his explanation. We will of course take those comments away and consider them, but at the moment I feel that there is still room to explore this issue and perhaps come up with another form of wording to take forward at a future stage. As I said earlier, the emphasis on reflecting the fact that the onus is on a business to prove that it is legitimate will need to run through all this. With those comments, and in anticipation of future discussions, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Bilateral Free Trade Agreements

Debate between Lord Johnson of Lainston and Baroness Blake of Leeds

Tuesday 20th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. Clearly, it is not designed to put me on the spot to reel off a list of measures from the top of my head. It would be much more useful for us to have a full debate on this matter and for me to respond to the House with a written answer to that question.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government promised that 80% of international trade would be covered by free trade agreements by the end of this year. However, there is no sign of a trade deal with the United States and, as we have heard, we do not yet know what is happening with India. Does the Minister acknowledge that the economic chaos created by the Government has done huge damage to the UK’s international reputation, making it harder to strike these trade deals and attract inward international investment?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. I should point out that it is our leaving the European Union that now allows us to create trade deals. Without that measure, we would not be in a position to create FTAs with some of the largest economies in the world. Without wishing to overexpand on my answer, I foresee this country becoming a global superpower again—