Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope(10 years ago)
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Lord Tope (LD)
Before I move the amendment, I wonder whether it would be appropriate to offer congratulations, in absentia, to the Minister who I thought would be replying to me today. We congratulate her on her escape from the Infrastructure Bill, even though she will no doubt miss all its excitement. It is a particular pleasure for me to welcome, rather unexpectedly, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, to answer here today, particularly in view of this amendment, which relates to the Greater London Authority, of which she has considerable knowledge and experience. I look forward to an even more favourable response than I was expecting.
In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment 85. They are two fairly simple and straightforward amendments that would add “or GLA”—the Greater London Authority—to this part of the Bill. I have tabled them because under the Localism Act 2011, the Homes and Communities Agency no longer has any remit in Greater London. That responsibility was devolved to the Greater London Authority and it is therefore logical that the powers going to the HCA, which will apply only to the rest of the country and not to London, should in this instance be passed to the GLA—hence my comment about the Minister who is now to reply having some knowledge and experience, not least of one of the major landowning parts of the Greater London Authority, namely Transport for London. Unless we make this amendment, there will be some vacuum in London as to what will happen. It will seem that the powers that the Bill seeks to give to the Homes and Communities Agency simply will not apply in Greater London, which makes no sense at all. Therefore, I genuinely look forward to a sympathetic response.
There is significant surplus public sector land in London, much of it indeed owned and put to good use by the GLA group. However, according to the Government in March this year, there are in London alone 75 surplus National Health Service sites, totalling 80 hectares, which could well be ready for development. I will not say that we are correcting an anomaly—no one would admit to drafting a Bill that contains an anomaly—but I hope we are filling a gap with this amendment, and that we will ensure that the GLA has the powers it needs to continue the very good work that it has done under both Administrations to make much better use of surplus publicly held land for housing. I do not need to stress again today the urgent need in London—perhaps throughout the country but nowhere more so than in London—to make the best possible use of land for additional housing.
In addition, it is the GLA that has the strategic planning role for Greater London, which fits together with this amendment. Finally, there is the issue of democratic oversight, provided by the Greater London Authority itself with its directly elected mayor and the elected London Assembly, but also by the—less well known but equally important in this context—Homes for London Board, which is a joint body with the GLA and the London boroughs and can oversee all this.
The noble Lord, Lord Best, has also put his name to my amendment. He has given me his apologies for being unable to be here today. He has recently been appointed chairman of your Lordships’ Communications Select Committee, which, unfortunately from our point of view, meets every Tuesday afternoon. He understandably feels that, as its newly elected chairman, he should be there. However, he has said to me, for the record:
“I understand the Homes and Communities Agency is not raising any objection to the idea of the GLA taking on this role for London: the HCA no longer operates within Greater London and it seems entirely sensible for the GLA to include this in their wider role—in partnership with the London Boroughs through the Homes for London Board; the housing association sector admires the leadership role which the GLA through the Deputy Mayor for Housing and Planning, Richard Blakeway, is pursuing, not least in arguing for Lifetime Homes accessibility standards, improved space standards and better performance by London’s private rented sector. I think the general view is that the GLA is a highly competent body on the housing scene and would make a success of this extra role”.
I think these amendments are necessary. They are clearly sensible and they future-proof against any further needs. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend will recollect that I raised this point at Second Reading on 18 June at col. 856. I will not repeat what I said on that occasion, or indeed on the very important points that my noble friend Lord Tope has just made.
The Minister was as good as her word and replied to the points that she did not have time for when she responded at Second Reading. She wrote to me on 1 July about the points I had raised, including this one, which she headed “Mayoral Powers”:
“Government officials and the Greater London Authority are in ongoing dialogue to agree suitable ways to transfer public sector land in London. If amendment of legislation is required, we will explore this at an appropriate opportunity in the future”.
It is a long time since I have felt that I was pushing at a door that is not only half open but almost entirely open. I hope my noble friend will be able to give us a little more information this afternoon.
The need for housing, particularly affordable housing, in London is acute. There can be very few couples —potential homeowners—under the age of 35 or thereabouts who feel that without significant parental help, or whatever else might be available, they will ever be able to buy a house. Part of the reason for that is the shortage of building land within the Greater London area and in the area immediately surrounding it. The disposal of surplus public land has become a matter of huge urgency. I believe, as my noble friend has said—and he quoted the noble Lord, Lord Best—that the Greater London Authority has this whole issue very much in mind and on its whole agenda for the development of London. The case for it to be the body to initiate, promote and encourage this is very strong indeed and I hope my noble friend the Minister will be able to give us an encouraging answer this afternoon. I support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Tope.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope(10 years ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am extremely grateful for the announcement that there is to be a consultation on this. Will the Minister give us an assurance that the Government’s response to the consultation will come well before we reach Report on this Bill?
Lord Tope
I was going to ask the same question. I am grateful to the Minister for taking some time to explain and try to reassure us. I was very pleased, but not surprised, to hear about the consultation. We look forward to seeing that in some detail. What is of particular relevance to this Committee and to us is that we know the outcome of the consultation and, particularly, the Government’s likely response to that outcome in time for the Bill’s next stage in this House. If the Minister is able to give us that reassurance, we will go away a little less unhappy.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, mention of the community infrastructure levy in this amendment gives me an opportunity—of which I have given my noble friends on the Front Bench notice—to raise an issue that was discussed with my noble friend Lady Hanham when she met the representatives of a very interesting small company called Pocket Living Ltd. This company aims to provide housing that is within the reach of people who can currently only afford to rent, and yet are above the level to qualify for social housing. Pocket Living Ltd has recently published a very splendid brochure, Pocket: Powered by the Mayor of London. This concerns the mayor’s housing covenant fund, but the company is very much a thriving one that fills a hugely important gap in housing provision, not just in London but potentially elsewhere as well.
The question is: what is the definition of affordable housing that would qualify for relief from a community infrastructure levy? When we debated Clause 6 we had a new definition of the affordable housing requirement, and I am told this is the first time that the words “affordable housing” have appeared in any statutory definition. The definition as it stands serves the limited purposes of that clause, but it adds to a plethora of overlapping definitions in this area that have grown up over the years for different purposes. Not only are these confusing, they can sometimes be downright contradictory. This is important because, as we have discussed, the need for genuinely affordable housing has never been greater.
I support the Bill’s objective of ensuring that the new housing developments we need are not held back by unreasonable and unviable demands for affordable housing. However, we must do everything we can to ensure that those who want to deliver genuinely affordable housing—of which I gave a brief outline at the beginning of my speech—have every incentive to do so, and are not held back by the unforeseen consequences of statutory definitions that may have been fit for purpose at the time, but in retrospect turned out to be too restrictive. I am afraid this is what has happened in the case of the regulations implementing the CIL. The regulations quite rightly recognise that we should not increase the burden on those with low or modest incomes, who are already struggling to find a home they can afford, by adding what would be a sizeable additional tax. However, the definitions of relief are so tightly drawn that we now find they do not cover some of the new and inventive models of affordable housing that are emerging.
I have mentioned that I was recently approached by a young company that found a very clever way to build smart new flats in central parts of London that young singles and couples can buy outright, even if they are on a modest income. The company wanted to build a small block of flats in Wandsworth for sale at around £200,000 each. The council wanted them, the Mayor of London wanted them, and they had a waiting list of 13,000 would-be buyers who desperately wanted them. However, as noble Lords may know, Wandsworth was one of the first London boroughs to implement the new levy, and when these people did their sums, they worked out that this would add some £10,000 to the cost of each flat. For a young couple on perhaps £30,000 or £40,000 a year, who have already been saving for perhaps seven or eight years for a deposit and have to pay London rents, £10,000 is an awful lot of money. The company reluctantly had to conclude that the scheme was unviable, and the plans were dropped.
These were genuinely affordable homes. They were available only to people who could prove that their salary was below the mayor’s limit for affordable housing. They were for sale at 20% below the open-market value, with a maximum price of £225,000. They could only ever be sold to other buyers who qualified for affordable homes. They would remain affordable homes, however many hands they went through. In fact, they satisfied every condition that my noble friend’s department sets out in the National Planning Policy Framework to qualify for affordable housing. Council planners say that they are affordable houses. The company had built five blocks of them already before the CIL came into effect. The Mayor of London agrees that they are affordable houses. DCLG says that they qualify for the affordable housing enhancement for the new homes bonus—so one part of the department seems to recognise this while the other does not. However, when it comes to the community infrastructure levy, they are treated in exactly the same way as if they were homes for millionaires. That really cannot be right. The only reason for it is that, when the regulations were drawn up in 2008, that type of home did not exist, so it was not included within the narrow definition for affordable housing.
As I have said, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend and my honourable friend Nick Boles who met with me and the representatives of this company. They listened very sympathetically as we put the problem to them. The company came away from that meeting encouraged by Ministers’ recognition of the problem. I know that Ministers have conceded that the CIL regulations are not perfect. One piece of sticking plaster was already applied just a couple of months ago, but I understand that a consultation paper will shortly be issued with some more proposals for change. Can my noble friend give the Committee some assurance that a priority will be to ensure that relief from CIL will be extended to cover all types of genuinely affordable housing, including the kind of housing scheme that was described to my noble friend and her honourable friend, and that the definition will be broad enough that we do not have to come back to it again within four or five years?
I was very struck by the story that this company told, and I think that Ministers were, too. I hope that we may get a sympathetic response to this plea.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope
Lord Tope
My Lords, Amendment 56 stands in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. I am pleased to see that the noble Lord has been able to join us.
We return to the situation in London, which seems surprisingly to have been completely overlooked throughout the Bill. We have a Greater London Authority and a Mayor of London and, once again, in view of sensitivities on both sides of the House, I have to point out that we refer to the office and not to past or present office-holders. We have a Mayor of London and we will continue to have a Mayor of London, to whom Parliament has given responsibility for strategic planning in London. Yet the Bill seems to take no account of that at all. In this case, the amendment would ensure that the mayor is notified of any application to modify or discharge affordable housing requirements in London and that, if he deems it necessary, he can call in such applications.
I move the amendment because I recognise that affordable housing, particularly in London, is of crucial importance to the role of strategic planning. It is largely central to it and a very high priority for past, present and, I hope, future mayors. I make the same case as I did the other day in Committee on another amendment. The Mayor of London has been given that responsibility by Parliament. He has been elected by the people of London. He is publicly accountable, first of all to the London Assembly, which is elected by the people of London, and also accountable—in a fairly high profile way, which will always be the case whoever the officeholder is—to the people of London. That must be more appropriate, better and certainly more in tune with localism than giving the responsibility to an unelected, unaccountable body, which is unversed, as yet, in this work, elsewhere in the country.
The added advantage, again, is that the GLA’s planning department knows the planning departments of all the London boroughs and the local housing situation in all the London boroughs. On the whole, most of the time, there is a very good relationship, so it will be making its judgments and decisions with knowledge and will be able to hear, and take proper account of, all arguments put forward both in the local context and in the strategic planning context for the whole capital. That seems to be entirely appropriate for an elected mayor with a strategic planning role. There is really no need at all to involve the Planning Inspectorate, which is based elsewhere and does not have either the knowledge or the accountability to carry out that role.
I move this amendment in the hope that the Government will belatedly start giving some consideration to the role that they and their predecessor Government have created in London: a mayor with responsibility for strategic planning. It is very hard to understand an argument that says that the mayor responsible for strategic planning should have no role in this process. I believe that must be an oversight and I am pleased to offer the Government the opportunity to correct it. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I am very pleased to be here to support my noble friend Lord Tope. It is about six hours since I was moving amendments in Grand Committee about copyright so it is pleasurable to come back to a rather more familiar scene. I do not think that I can add very much to what my noble friend has said. He has put the case extremely well. The centre of the case is that the mayor is there and has these powers accorded to him by Parliament. It seems very strange that he should have no function in relation to this important matter. Affordable housing in London is enormously important, as I think my noble friend on the Front Bench will acknowledge. From his own knowledge, he will be well aware of the need to find proper housing for people who cannot afford to go out into the market. The mayor has this overall responsibility. Why should he not be entitled to have this role rather than it going to the inspectorate in Bristol? I very much support the amendment.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
The Mayoral Development Corporation that is set up under the Localism Act might well be the sort of place where the mayor would have the primary role.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I rise to speak to this amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Shipley, who is engaged at a Holocaust memorial function in Speaker’s House.
This is arguably the amendment that might make the most difference to achieving growth in the housing market, because it seeks to remove the housing borrowing cap. The measure that has been called for by a large number of bodies—most recently, the National Federation of ALMOs, the Chartered Institute of Housing, the Local Government Association, the Association of Retained Council Housing and London Councils. All of them say that removal of the housing borrowing cap to enable local authorities to start more building would make a huge and almost immediate difference to the provision of housing, particularly in the capital but also throughout the country.
I hope that there is some movement on this; I have heard some encouraging noises elsewhere. I recall asking the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, about it in Questions a week or two ago and she replied that it was a matter for the Treasury. Unfortunately, I was not allowed a supplementary. Of course it is a matter for the Treasury; some would say that that is the whole problem. But it is still the responsibility of the Minister’s department and all of us who support this Government —and of those who do not support them—to take the measures that would enable housebuilding to get under way. This is certainly not the only measure but it is a single measure that would make an enormous difference. If authorities were still governed by all the prudential rules in the same way as normal, they would still have to act responsibly, but if they were able to borrow against their housing stock, it would make a significant difference. It would get housebuilding moving on a greater scale. I hope that discussions within government are moving in the right direction and that, if not tonight then before the end of this Bill, we will hear that the housing borrowing cap is being lifted. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I strongly urge the amendment on my noble friend the Minister. My noble friend Lord Tope said that a great many organisations were in favour of the change. I have to say that none is more in favour than London Councils—I should perhaps have again declared my interest as a joint president. It has said firmly that, of all the measures, this could be one which really helps the housing situation in London—which, as noble Lords know well, is pretty desperate at the moment.
The cap exists on top of the normal constraints on local government borrowing. It is an additional barrier to development which seems absurd in the present circumstances, given that everybody is quite rightly saying to the Government that growth and getting things moving should be absolutely top of the agenda. It seems absurd that there should be duplication of the protection against irresponsible borrowing by local authorities. It seems not to have any sensible purpose now. The usual controls operate perfectly satisfactorily. I simply do not understand the case for retaining the cap.
I have perhaps not had my ear quite as close to the ground as my noble friend Lord Tope, but I cannot believe that the Chancellor and his colleagues in the Treasury have not been made aware of this and do not recognise that, if they really want to move housing forward in London and the rest of the country, the cap should be removed. I hope that my noble friend will be able to respond positively.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope
Lord Tope
My Lords, in moving Amendment 39, I shall speak also to Amendment 80, both of which stand in my name and are supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine. Though on the Marshalled List her name is only attached to Amendment 39, she has assured me that she supports Amendment 80 as well.
I begin with two apologies. I should earlier have declared my interest as a councillor in a London borough. Given the subject of these amendments, I must particularly declare my interest as a London borough councillor. Secondly, I apologise on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, who has an important engagement this evening and was unsure whether we would get to this amendment or, if we did, at what time. I agreed that she should go and keep her important engagement rather than wait here, and promised to do my best—not to represent her views; I cannot do that—at least to put this debate on record. I should perhaps also declare on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, since I am speaking for her as well, that she is chief executive of London First and a board member of the Peabody housing trust.
These two amendments are the first to refer to the unique position of Greater London in these considerations. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, reminded me of the combined authority in Greater Manchester; it is not exactly the same as in Greater London, but if he wishes to bring forward proposals of a similar nature, I would certainly consider them with great sympathy. In view of the time of night, I do not want to go into great detail on this; I am not sure that, at this stage, it is necessary to do so because I am sure we will return to it on Report. However, the situation and position in London is that the Mayor of London—and here I refer to the office, not necessarily the office holder at any particular time, in which I have not so far had any interest to declare—already has the responsibilities for strategic planning in London. I am unclear whether the Government have given any consideration—and if so, what—to the position of London in relation to the provisions of this Bill.
It seems to me that if any London planning authority has the misfortune to be designated—we all hope that this does not happen, and I have made my views clear about that—it would be sensible in all respects for it to be referred to the Mayor of London and to the Greater London Authority, rather than to the planning inspectorate, which just happens to be in Bristol. I say that on a number of grounds. The first is the important democratic principle that the Mayor of London is elected by Londoners; he is accountable to Londoners and he is accountable particularly directly to the elected London assembly. Therefore, the actions he takes and the decisions he makes are directly accountable to an elected body, which is not the case with the planning inspectorate.
Secondly, the planning department in the Greater London Authority has on the whole a good relationship —certainly a relationship—with all the planning authorities in London, some more than others, as necessary. It knows the situation in London and the individuals concerned in many cases. It is by definition more local than somebody based in Bristol could possibly be. It is better placed to consider particular local circumstances, and indeed, people are able to make their representations directly to that elected and accountable body.
From the point of view of the Mayor of London with his responsibility for strategic planning in London, if a planning authority is performing so badly as to be designated, that must have implications for him and his strategic role, so again, in all respects the mayor has a particular interest in planning. For me the important principle is that if there is to be designation, at least in London it can go to an elected and accountable body rather than to an appointed body some distance from London. I have made my position clear several times, but if it is to happen, that is a far preferable situation and far more in accordance with our belief in localism.
Briefly, Amendment 80, which is much further on in the Bill, would ensure that planning applications for developments relating to school and energy infrastructure must be referred to the mayor as being of potential strategic importance. This would allow him to call in applications that are deemed to have strategic significance for the capital’s future and expedite the decision-making process, getting key projects off the ground. That would also allow the mayor to delegate his call-in powers in cases where he does not have the time personally to hold the representation hearing or he has a conflict of interest in which case the power is currently automatically lost. We need to consider the position of London in the context of a Greater London Authority and an elected mayor. Should it be deemed in the future that Greater Manchester is in that position, that will be fine. It is the principle that I am concerned with here. In England, that principle applies only to London, and I do not see that the Government have yet given any consideration to the position of London in relation to their proposals. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, due to procrastination, I did not ask for my name to be added to those of the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, until the weekend, by which time the first Marshalled List was already with the printers. However, I warmly support what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and I do not need to add very much to it.
The point I would make is that the Mayor of London—I am talking about the office and not the individual—already has very substantial strategic planning functions in London. As to the question of designation and the right of an applicant to apply under the rest of the Bill to the Secretary of State, it seems obvious that in London the application should be referred to the mayor because, by definition, we are talking about major applications. As I think my noble friend said, the mayor has extraordinarily good planning relationships not only with the boroughs but with a range of other interests, such as developers, other stakeholders and so on, who are very much concerned with planning. That has been developed to a considerable degree of expertise and skill. That is the right body to exercise the function if, as has been said, any London borough suffers the misfortune of being designated. I very much support this.
I hope that by the time we come to debate Amendment 80, my name will have been added to it. It is a very useful and important addition. The Mayor of London, with his overall economic functions, has a very considerable interest in ensuring that there is sufficient energy to supply London, particularly when one is dealing with decentralised energy—what might be local wind-power turbines and things of that sort. It would be entirely appropriate in those circumstances that he should have the right to call in applications that refer to such functions. Like my noble friend Lord Tope, I warmly support the amendment and hope that the Government may see their way to accepting it. Amendments 39 and 80 were drafted to follow the pattern of the earlier part—Clause 1—of the Bill, so I hope that the Government may feel able to accept them. It would be very much welcomed in London, and also by the London boroughs. I have already declared my interest as a joint president of London Councils. I look forward to hearing what my noble friend says from the Front Bench.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope
Lord Tope
My Lords, Amendment 8, standing in my name, is in this group. It largely speaks for itself. It requires the Secretary of State to take into account improvements—or otherwise—that the planning authority has made in the five years prior to his considering it for designation. The purpose is that the Secretary of State should not just take a snapshot, or even just take into account the two-year period that has been referred to, but should look at the direction of travel of the planning authority. Has it remained poorly performing over a significant period? Has it got worse over that period? In that case, the Secretary of State must truly be looking at designation. However, if an authority is making significant improvements over that period—in our previous debate, the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred to Northumberland making significant improvements over time—it would be heavy-handed, and I would say quite wrong, to consider that it should be designated. If it shows evidence over a significant period that it is putting its house in order and improving its performance, surely the Secretary of State must take that into account.
Amendment 34 is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord True. As he explained in the previous debate, unfortunately he had to leave just now to attend a meeting of his local council, of which he is leader. As my name is on the amendment and I support it, I will refer to it and say that the concern is that time taken over legal proceedings under judicial review should not be counted in this regard. He would like the Minister to take account of this and will welcome her comments, which he will be able to read in Hansard, before we consider what action we may wish to take on Report.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
Encouraged by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, I will say something about Amendment 28. When I was Health Secretary, I had to suspend the Lambeth, Southwark & Lewisham Health Authority because it was refusing to live within its cash limits. That suspension was overturned by the High Court on the grounds that I had put no limit on the time of suspension. The embarrassing consequence was that I had to bring legislation before Parliament to validate what the commissioner whom I had appointed had done in the intervening period. Has my noble friend taken into account what the courts might say about what would appear to be an indefinite period of designation, or does she envisage that a designation will always include a time limit during which it could be considered, reconsidered and if necessary renewed? I was stung once, and one can use one’s experience to ask what I hope is a not wholly frivolous question.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope(12 years ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
Perhaps I misheard the noble Lord. I understood that he was asking the LGA to reconsider its view. He is perfectly entitled to do so, but it is against the background that the association has considered its opinions on this extremely carefully and has made its decision. Of course it is not unanimous; no one is suggesting that it is. If there were unanimity, the millennium would have arrived. In matters of local authority finance, there are many different points of view. Perhaps we may leave it at that.
In speaking to this amendment, I am looking for some assurance from the Government on how they see the future of this structure. Local authorities are anxious that, after the next comprehensive spending review, they will find themselves bearing a significantly larger proportion of the total cost than is envisaged at the moment. If my noble friend could give any assurances on that, I know they will be very well received.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I am not a vice-president of the Local Government Association and I certainly do not claim to speak for it. I said in a debate on an earlier amendment that the views of local authorities within the Local Government Association, as most are, have differed on this issue, regardless of political control. There are certainly Labour-majority councils that have supported what they thought was the localisation of council tax. There are some in my own authority. However, as people have come to realise the implications of what we are debating today, that support has become more questioning. I shall put it no more strongly than that. The briefing that I imagine we have all had from the LGA today states:
“The LGA supports the principle of localising responsibility for decisions about the incidence of council tax”.
The question is whether that is what we are getting now but maybe that is for another debate.
I support my noble friend Lord Jenkin. My noble friend Lord Shipley and I have added our names to Amendment 73A, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, explained very well. The concern that we address with this amendment is the expectation that, for a range of reasons, the cost of council tax support will increase. More people are likely to claim it because, sadly, they will fall into that category, perhaps because the change in wording from “benefit” to “support” will—wrongly, maybe—encourage more people to feel able to claim it. Therefore it is highly probable that the costs will increase in years to come. We seek from the Government an indication of how they intend to deal with that and, more particularly, an assurance that it will fit under the new burdens doctrine and that the increased costs, assessed annually by the Government, will be met in full in accordance with the doctrine. That is the purport of the amendment in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. We seek reassurance from the Government.
Local Government Finance Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope(12 years ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, before my noble friend replies to the debate, I should like to add a word. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, quoted a passage from London Councils’ briefing, which we have all received. I and my noble friends have tabled a number of amendments—to which we will come later and to some of which the noble Lord has added his name—which recommend a marked change in the structure of this division of the business rate. London Councils—I should declare an interest as one of its presidents—has indicated to me that on balance, with regard to this part of the Bill dealing with the business rate retention scheme, it would be a little upset if the date were postponed.
A lot of work is being done on this by London Councils and there has been a good deal of discussion about the pooling arrangements that may be appropriate. Although it is not put as a very firm and immutable point of policy, its view is that 2013 for this part of the Bill is right, and I think it would regret it if the date were changed. I draw a very clear distinction between this and the later part of the Bill dealing with the council tax, where there is still an enormous amount of anxiety that councils will simply not be ready with their own local schemes. However, we shall come to that later. I think that I should let the Committee and my noble friend on the Front Bench know that on balance London Councils would regret a postponement of Part 1.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I suppose that I, too, should begin by declaring an interest. I am simply a councillor in the London Borough of Sutton. I am not a vice-president of anything, or at least not yet—I see that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is disappointed with that declaration.
I listened to the noble Lords opposite making the case, with which I am sure many in local government would have some sympathy. I think that all of us, on both sides, would wish to be a little further ahead than has proved possible. However, I suspect that as we will say time and again with this Bill, we are where we are now and we have to consider the question of postponement. My noble friend Lord Jenkin is right to draw a distinction between postponement of the business rate retention proposals and a possible postponement in implementing the localisation of council tax support, to which we will come later. There will be many in local government who have sympathy with what has been said on the other side of the Committee and perhaps more so when we get to council tax support.
As a councillor, I have thought quite hard about this in respect of my own authority and more generally. I do not support postponement. I would rather we were not where we are. Until relatively recently, it was expected that this Bill would be enacted by the end of this month but clearly that will not happen until much later. I hope that, in reply, the Minister will be able to give us a clear and firm commitment that by Report stage, in October, all that is required to be published will have been published, albeit in draft form. I take the point that until the Bill is enacted, it cannot be in an absolutely final form. However, if local authorities know all that they need to know by October at the latest, and I hope a little before that, and if the Minister is able to give a reassurance, I believe that most local authorities will share my view on business rate retention that we are so far down the road and there is so much expectation that this will happen—there has been so much wish that it should happen and we shall come to that later—that postponement now would not be welcome, particularly to me. I hope, with some confidence, that the Minister will resist these amendments.
Localism Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Tope
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for moving the amendment. As he rightly said, my noble friend Lord Shipley has added his name to it and was hoping and expecting to be here to speak in support of it. He has been in Manchester all day on government business. I have just heard that he has only just got on a train in Manchester, so I suspect that he will not be here in time to contribute to this debate. However, I have a fairly good idea of what he would have said had he been here, and I speak on his behalf. As someone who has been a London councillor all his adult life, I must say that I had not expected to be speaking on behalf of Core Cities. It is a rare privilege and something I do enthusiastically because I very much support these amendments.
Both this Government and the previous Administration have made firm commitments to devolution and decentralisation. The Bill now offers an opportunity to hand decision-making powers from central to local government, working in partnership with the private sector. The Government’s stated aim is to rebalance the economy, focusing on the whole of our national economic system as well as London and the south-east, enabling other places to develop their economies to boost national growth and productivity.
Devolution has happened at different speeds in different geographies. London will receive further powers through the Bill, and the devolved Assemblies already have powers that are not available directly to cities in England. Without further decentralisation there is a risk that England’s core cities, which generate 27 per cent of England’s GVA—my noble friend Lord Shipley points out that that is more than London—and other towns and cities will be unable to perform to their full potential and support nationwide growth and enterprise. Recent independent forecasts by Oxford Economics demonstrate that the core cities’ eight local enterprise partnership areas are capable of delivering an additional 1 million jobs and £44 billion GVA over the next decade, given the tools to do so.
This enabling amendment creates a route to these tools to ministerial delegation and the transfer of public service functions for economic development and wealth creation to single and combined authorities in England. Any such actions would be subject to competency tests, including strong local governance and private sector buy-in, evidence that growth can be delivered and sound arrangements to work across administrative boundaries.
The potential of the amendment would be open to any place, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has said, that can demonstrate that it can pass the competency tests that the Government will set out. It will ensure that local areas have the powers and financial autonomy to deliver local solutions to their challenges, and that further legislation will not be needed to pass these powers to cities’ civic and business leaders. Any major transfers will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny.
The amendment would support private sector growth and new opportunities for investment, ensure continued buy-in from private sector partners on LEPs, support the implementation of policy to incentivise places to deliver growth, support double devolution to local communities, and be a significant step towards decentralisation.
As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has said, these amendments enjoy support from at least three sides of the House and, I hope, passive support from the fourth. Therefore, I am very pleased to be able to support them.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, having heard the case in favour of these amendments, I am not in the least surprised that my noble friend on the Front Bench has added her name to them. My only comment is to say how much has changed since I was in charge of local authorities back in the 1980s. It is a change that is entirely welcome. This is a far more positive approach than anything I had to deal with at that time. Perhaps a veil might be drawn over that period; it was a very unhappy period for much of local government. I thoroughly support these clauses and I congratulate the core cities on the work they have done to bring all this forward.
Localism Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I want to make only three points at this stage of the debate. We are here on the fourth day in Committee on this Bill and I have listened to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, with what I have to say is some dismay. I have certainly not had his committee’s report drawn to my attention, so I have not seen it. No doubt it is in the Printed Paper Office nestling among the volumes of other papers for us to pick up. I recognised almost all the papers set out there as things I have already. This is really a question of how the House works. From what the noble Lord said, the committee has made important recommendations, but they will have to be dealt with on Report, once we have had a chance to look at them. I doubt whether amendments could be tabled, debated and approved in the remaining days of the Committee stage. This does seem to be something that the House authorities might like to take note of. I appreciate the difficulty of the committee, faced with this huge Bill from another place. It had its Second Reading and we then moved fairly smartly into the Committee stage. However, this is not a very satisfactory way of proceeding. We ought to have had those recommendations before we started the Committee stage, but we did not, although I understand that it is no fault of the committee.
My second point is that, in welcoming the amendments that have been tabled by my noble friends, I should like to say particularly how much I appreciate the way the Government have listened to the representations made in another place about the question of a petition that might be called for by the Greater London Authority. The suggestion they have come up with, that there needs to be a 1 per cent vote in every London borough before the GLA has to call a referendum, is a wise one. As my noble friends have suggested, it will prevent a fuss in a particular area, one that might arouse considerable public opposition, forcing the GLA to hold a referendum at huge cost—estimated at somewhere between £5 million and £12 million depending on whether it happens on the same day as another election. The Government’s suggestion that a 1 per cent vote in every borough would trigger the obligation to consider whether a referendum should be held therefore seems absolutely right.
My third point arises from representations that I have had—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Best, will be interested in this—from the Local Government Association. Noble Lords may remember that, on the second day of Committee on 23 June, I expressed some dismay that the opportunity had not been taken in the Bill to follow through the general power of competence, which Clause 1 gives to local authorities, by substantially lightening the burden of central direction on them. I said during my brief remarks then that both the London Councils—I declare an interest as a joint president—and the Local Government Association, of which I am a vice-president, had said, “Yes, Patrick, we agree but it would be an entirely different kind of Bill”. I remarked in my speech on the difficulty of trying to amend the Bill to try to remove some of what I see as retaining an over-complex power for central government to tell local authorities what to do and how to behave. Giving a general power of competence requires trusting the local authorities to do things in a sensible way. They are accountable to their local electorate if they do not.
I think that the Local Government Association saw that as a bit of a challenge. It has produced for me a list of amendments designed to return to local authorities the responsibility for deciding when and how to conduct a referendum. That is the good side. Unfortunately, somehow I only received that yesterday afternoon when I was engaged on other business. By the time I was able to turn my attention to the e-mail from the Local Government Association, it was clear that we were already too late. I will make the case that the LGA has decided on and give notice that I may wish to return to these matters on Report.
The LGA makes the point, just as I did on the second day in Committee, that it seems absurd in this day and age that central government should retain such an overwhelming control over how local authorities continue to manage their business. It draws attention in particular to Part 4, Chapter 1 of the Bill and the whole question we have discussed of holding a referendum. The LGA says:
“This section of the Bill is symptomatic of the difficulty Whitehall has had in translating Ministers’ localist ideas into legislation. Instead of freeing local people, and their councils, to decide how best local consultation and challenge should take place, the Bill lays down an extremely prescriptive process, managed from the centre, determining exactly how localism should work on the ground”.
I have every sympathy with that sentiment. My only regret is that, like the report of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, it has come to me rather late. There will be another opportunity and, as I said, I will want to raise the matter again.
I shall want in particular to ask that it should be the local council rather than the Secretary of State who determines the threshold for a petition to trigger a referendum and that the Bill should allow the local council rather the Secretary of State to determine whether a petition or a signature thereon is acceptable—and decide what is a local matter.
That is spelt out in the Bill as something that the Secretary of State has to determine, not the council, which strikes me as being little short of absurd.
I want also to see the local council, rather than the Secretary of State, determine the conduct of its referendum, including choosing the date and deciding how to publicise it, who is eligible to vote, how votes are counted and so on. Are the councils not capable of doing that? There may be some that will fall short but so be it: if we are serious about localism and about pushing decisions down from central government to the local level, we have to trust the local authorities to deal with that. I am much encouraged by seeing nods all round the Chamber and I am only sorry that, because of the late arrival of these suggestions, we are not able to discuss them on specific amendments this afternoon.
I will want to return to this matter. The Local Government Association has now risen to the challenge that I threw out at Second Reading and produced proposals which would involve removing quite large elements from this part of the Bill in order to make sure that it is local councils that decide how they are going to run their own affairs, not the Secretary of State.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I associate myself very much with all three substantive points that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has made. On his last point, I, too, received the briefing from the Local Government Association and was a little puzzled to see that it was dated 20 June but it arrived with me, and indeed with him, yesterday afternoon. The noble Lord is right, but I cannot help recalling a little ruefully that a few years back, I was a council leader and he was the Secretary of State responsible for local government. I wish he had spoken in those terms in those days, but better late than never.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
If my noble friend would allow me, I have already expressed my contrition. I did so at Second Reading, when I mentioned how I failed to persuade the senior officers in a conference of chief executives that the Government were entirely justified. I did not convince them, mainly because I could not convince myself.
Lord Tope
The noble Lord is forgiven: blessed is the sinner that repenteth. He is absolutely right in what he says. I, too, was looking at this briefing—I was in fact in Brussels until this morning and looked at it coming back—which, like the noble Lord, makes the point:
“The most ironic example of this is the power in Clause 44(6) for the Secretary of State to state what constitutes a local matter”.
That is so absurd that it is just laughable. The noble Lord and this briefing are both saying that if we were to do all of this, and I suspect a bit more too, we might have something that could be called a Localism Bill. That is what this is about. If he chooses to return to this at a later stage, we will certainly be sympathetic to that.
My original intention in standing up was on the second point from the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and, for once, to congratulate and be thankful to the Government for their amendments on the pan-London referendum. Perhaps I speak as a London taxpayer as well. He made the points, so I will not repeat them, but the proposals are clearly both necessary and very sensible and it is very welcome that we will now have a sensible provision. Should there ever be a pan-London referendum, it will not be called because of some probably serious issue in some part of London that does not apply to the whole of London. By making this provision, such a referendum will truly be on a pan-London issue, as it should be.
Localism Bill
Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Tope(13 years ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market, perhaps I may give a very short introduction to this group of amendments. I say at once that my noble friend has been as good as her word and put her name to the main amendment in the group, Amendment 57. She will no longer press the case for mayors and chief executives to combine their role. With this having been virtually outlawed in public companies, and with the idea of an independent chairman and a chief executive being quite separate, having become very nearly standard in major quoted companies, it would seem very odd that local authorities should be moving in the other direction. I am delighted that the Government have seen that that is not a very sensible way to go. I have the same difficulty as my noble friend Lord Tope in trying to find out exactly where we have got to. In moving this amendment, I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will be able to make all things clear. I beg to move.
Lord Tope
My Lords, my name, too, is on this amendment like that of my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market. Unfortunately my noble friend is unable to be here today—which I think she particularly regrets given the other names that have now been added to the amendment. I echo all that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has said, and I am relieved to know that even with all his experience, he is possibly nearly as confused as I am about exactly where we are left with this, except that it is certainly in a much better place than it was a few days ago, which is welcome.
I understand now—in the proper spirit of localism, I suppose—that those mayors who are minded also to become chief executives, as I think is intended in Leicester, are at liberty to do so. I said at Second Reading that localism must mean the right to make the wrong decision. Therefore, I have to defend the right to make the wrong decision. There should be a clear difference between the role of an elected political leader and the role of a chief executive—I realise that we still have a head of paid service. A chief executive is usually, in theory, apolitical. There is a clear distinction and I regret the extent to which that is becoming blurred.
Once again I thank the Minister not only for her support for the amendment but for being willing and able to come out and say so at an early stage in the Bill. Like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I look forward to a clear exposition of exactly where we are, and what is and is not in the Bill, as we go forward.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I am not sure that I can accept her reasoning for rejecting Amendment 58, which is also in my name—not least because I have been nice to her and about her for at least 21 years; she should be very well used to it by now. That is not a reason for being unable to give the reasons for rejecting the amendment. However, as I am moving Amendment 57 in this group, I beg leave to withdraw that amendment. No, I am sorry. I am so unused to this. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I have already moved Amendment 57. I had originally hoped that my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market would be here to move the amendment. We have had an exchange of e-mails and I am sorry to see that she is not. In those circumstances, I moved the amendment. I repeat, this is not so much a love fest as a return of common sense, and we are all delighted with that.