Intellectual Property Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Howarth of Newport

Thursday 13th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I hope to be able to deal with this very briefly, as I shall explain. The purpose of the amendment, along with the amendment grouped with it, is to try to make sure that artistic works prepared before 1 June 1957 will still be protected despite the repeal of Section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. I remind the Committee that we discussed this at some length during the passage of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill.

I have learnt that the group of manufacturers who are concerned about this have a meeting set up with the IPO for a week today. It was suggested to me—and I have suggested it in turn to my noble friend and given notice to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson—that perhaps it would be better to wait to see whether the outcome of that consultation meets the concerns of those companies. If it does not, and the issue turns out to be serious, we can, of course, return to this matter on Report. On the assumption that my noble friend will share my anxiety to let that meeting proceed first, I hope that he will be able to respond with equal brevity. I beg to move.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I rise to speak very briefly. One has a pleasant sense of déjà vu when the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, tables an amendment in relation to works that he is careful to label as “artistic” created before 1957. However, he then spoke of a group of manufacturers who are shortly to meet the Intellectual Property Office. I am a little puzzled about the relationship of artistic property to the activities of manufacturers. If the noble Lord were able to clarify quite what the relevance of one is to the other, I would find that helpful.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I apologise if through brevity I omitted some obviously important facts. We are dealing with iconic pieces of design, many of which were created in what is known as the Bauhaus period. These would include such things as the Corbusier chaise, the Wagenfeld lamp and what we frequently refer to as the Eames lounge chair. They are indisputably works of fine art and are protected by copyright throughout the European Union. The manufacturers want to be sure that they will continue to be protected in the UK.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Howarth of Newport

Monday 11th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. The protection of designs is a hugely important part of the whole question of intellectual property. I am not convinced that the Bill as drafted adequately protects this, and I shall be very interested to hear what my noble friend on the Front Bench says. I understand the points that have been made by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and others about the desire of the people who might want to use this for other purposes, but I feel very strongly that it is necessary to protect the property rights of those who were responsible for the original design. As I understand the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, that is the intention that she has put forward.

When I spoke on this Bill before, both in Committee and at the previous Report sitting, I was initially given the impression that this issue was not sufficiently high on the Government’s agenda. However, by the time we had finished the Committee stage, and in the light of the amendments which my noble friend has tabled and to which reference has already been made, I have been reassured. However, I still feel that those who are responsible for creating the designs—they may be designs of all sorts of artefacts and artistic works—should have their rights properly protected. Having heard the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and having read some of the briefing on this from bodies that represent designers of all sorts, I am not wholly satisfied that the individual’s rights are properly protected. I shall be interested to hear what my noble friend has to say when he replies to this debate.

I should add that I am very much in favour of and welcome government Amendment 84A in this group. That seems to be a considerable improvement and reinforces my view that my noble friend is doing his best to try to hold the balance fairly. However, on this question of design, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, laid emphasis, and on which I have seen some of the representations that have been made, I still require reassurance. I hope that my noble friend may be able to provide it.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I should like to enter a dissenting note in relation to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and my noble friend Lady Whitaker on this specific question of designs—for example, of furniture. It is not clear to me why it would be an improvement to extend the period of protected copyright in a registered design from the 25 years that has prevailed for a long time past to the proposed “life plus 70 years” period. The effect would be to perpetuate monopolies held by designers and their assignees, and by those who purchase intellectual property from them.

It is of course essential that there be a proper period of protection for intellectual property and that designers and other originators of intellectual property are able to enjoy a proper return and reward for their investment. However, it is not clear to me why the prices of the items that they designed—tables and chairs, for example—should be kept artificially high beyond 25 years, for perhaps 100 years and more.

Let me quote to my noble friend William Morris, a pioneer of English socialism and of English domestic design, whose general injunction was:

“Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful”.

He also said:

“I do not want art for a few any more than education for a few, or freedom for a few”.

We must reward and incentivise our designers, but we must keep a balance that will enable people to have beautiful things in their homes. It is not clear to me why the price of a Charles Eames chair or an Eileen Gray table should be kept very high for long periods beyond 25 years, thereby preventing ordinary people having beautiful things in their homes.

I wonder also whether the proposed extension would prove to be policeable. I do not know what the noble Lord and my noble friend anticipate the intellectual property regime will be that will successfully police the manufacturing of furniture by, for example, 3D printing. The pace of change in the digital economy and its extent is so vast that we may need to think in more radical terms about how we find ways to protect the legitimate interests of individual and private rights holders while extending the benefits of digital design that are capable of being replicated at virtually no cost as rapidly and extensively as possible. I wonder whether it is sensible to try to continue to shore up this decaying edifice of traditional copyright, or whether Governments and possibly charities should not be finding ways to give the rewards to the designers but, at the same time, allow the maximum number of people to have the benefit of those designs as early as possible.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Howarth of Newport

Monday 28th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I added my name to the noble Baroness’s amendment. I, too, have had representations from the organisations that represent designers, and emphasise one point made by the noble Baroness: that many of these replicated designs are not made in the EEA, and certainly not in the UK. One group conducted considerable research on this subject and discovered that quite often a UK name is linked with the design, but that when you go behind that you find that it is largely a sham. It is quite clear that all this comes from abroad, so merely repealing Section 52 by itself will not achieve the Government’s intentions. As for their representing it as being of considerable value to designers, I have to say that without the two amendments in this group which the noble Baroness has tabled, it will be largely ineffective.

I hope very much, therefore, that the Government will feel able to accept these amendments. As the noble Baroness said, they complete the reform which the repeal of Section 52 is intended to provide. They add nothing that is extraneous to it, they merely make it effective, and I am sure that that is what the Government want. I hope very much that my noble friend the Minister will feel able to give these amendments a fair wind.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I oppose these amendments. It seems to me that the extension of copyright design from 25 years to life plus 70 years is altogether excessive. That could amount to something like 120 years, and it would be particularly unfortunate if we were to extend the proposed provisions to apply to designs created before 1957. I entirely support the principle of a fair return to designers and to their estates, but it seems to me that 25 years is sufficient. I am not in favour of protecting the monopoly of the purveyors of Eames chairs, which my noble friend Lady Whitaker cited as an instance, or indeed of Eileen Gray chairs or any other famous and beautiful designs that would be affected by this amendment. It seems to me that the prices that are charged to people who want to buy these pieces of furniture are quite outrageous. I ask my noble friend Lady Whitaker in particular why good design should be available only for the rich? I want to see Eames and Gray designs for the masses.

I further note that the proposals in these amendments are protectionist. That does not seem to me to be particularly constructive. They are keen to keep out replicas that might be made elsewhere. If we were not to perpetuate beyond 25 years the inhibition on manufacturing and retailing in this country, we would do good to a significant sector of our economy and we would enable the quality of life of a significant number of people to be significantly improved. So personally I do not favour the amendments that have been proposed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly to Amendment 28JA. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and I have discussed the issue of separate statutory instruments for each exception. As he said, they may have totally different effects and it would be quite difficult for the House to debate one single compendium of exceptions when they may involve very different interests and very different impacts. Mentioning impacts leads me to say that, if there are to be separate statutory instruments for each change passed under this clause, there should be separate impact statements.

Some weeks ago, I collected the impact statement for this Bill from the Printed Paper Office. I have not attempted to weigh it but it is about two inches thick and I must confess that I have not waded through it. Of course, the Bill contains a whole range of issues but one realises that, when departments produce impact assessments on this scale, you have to be a very devoted Peer and have plenty of time to be able to make anything of them. I suspect that some of the changes that may be envisaged as being achieved by order under this clause may be wholly unexceptionable, in which case so be it. However, there may be some which will be very controversial and should be properly debated, in which case they should have a separate impact assessment. That is the burden of the amendment to which I have put my name and I hope that the Minister will take account of it when he responds.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is the most diligent of parliamentarians. If he has not been able to read the impact assessment from start to finish, that illustrates that we have problems in achieving satisfactory scrutiny of legislation.

I support Amendments 28H, 28J and 28JA because I agree with noble Lords who have already argued that it is important that we should look at the relevant statutory instruments one by one, in so far as that is realistic and practical.

I believe that it is realistic and practical for Parliament. There may be problems in that, as has already been suggested, the material contained within different statutory instruments may overlap with other statutory instruments to a degree, in which case one must proceed pragmatically. But it is right in principle that Parliament should have the maximum opportunity to examine secondary legislation. One could say that the more minimalist the primary legislation the more important it is to ensure that the secondary legislation that stems from it is thoroughly scrutinised.

We can be a little too defeatist in Parliament about the scope for satisfactory scrutiny of statutory instruments. When I was in the House of Commons, time was all too limited for examining SIs. As a self-regulating House, we are better placed to ensure that we examine statutory instruments more thoroughly in this House. We have committees of the House that take it upon themselves to do a lot of preliminary work on our behalf. There is a disposition and a considerable ability in your Lordships' House to do this job properly.

We cannot overstate the importance of some of this secondary legislation. The creation of new exceptions to copyright law can have a major bearing on the livelihoods of large numbers of people and on the performance of significant sectors of our economy. We owe it to the public whom we serve that we take the greatest care to ensure that these exceptions are properly formulated.

The presumption should be that each one is embodied in a separate statutory instrument and carries with it a separate impact assessment, which I hope will then be on a scale that the Minister and all the rest of us would be able to manage. I hope that the Minister will be able to give a full and formal assurance that this will be the approach of the Government.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Howarth of Newport

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, it is ironic that the Government's attempt to clarify the purport of the existing law has led to large-scale confusion and anxiety. While I was enormously relieved to hear what the noble Earl said, and absolutely accept that that is the appropriate interpretation of the provision, none the less, since he also said that the addition of this clause and the amendment that we are debating to the new clause that the Government brought in at a late stage in Commons proceedings does not do anything to change the law, would it not be better to withdraw the clause and issue guidance to clarify, for anyone who may be in doubt, what the existing law means? That would be helpful. Of course, those who attempt to construe the law and the Government's intentions will take careful account of what the noble Earl said on the record this evening. However, it would be better to remove the clause, clarify the law as it is and allow everybody to settle down and get on with the work that they need to do.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, the Minister deserves complete support. When we debated this in Committee, I made the point that the clause did not change the law at all. My noble friend made this clear and stated that there had been confusion, which the amendment was designed to remove. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, spoke eloquently. Her noble friend Lord Greaves suggested that perhaps, in order to remove doubt, it might be helpful if the Government could clarify the extent of the clause and explain that it did not put financial considerations above all others, but that it was entirely for the planning authority to determine what weight should be given to them. That has been done. I find myself very unsympathetic to the argument advanced by my noble friend Lady Hamwee that by going on and trying to make this clear, my noble friend is digging himself deeper into a hole. That is very unfair. He recognised the concerns that were expressed in Committee and moved an amendment that puts the matter beyond doubt. He deserves complete support.