Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Lord Jay of Ewelme Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB)]

My Lords, I speak today as chairman of the committee on the protocol in your Lordships’ House, nearly all of whose members are speaking in the Second Reading debate today. I am only too conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, is speaking after me

We on the committee are united in our view of the importance of scrutinising the protocol and the effect that it will have and indeed is already having on the economy and the politics of Northern Ireland. As our latest report shows, that economic impact is hard to discern with certainty. Many of those involved in east- west trade—trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland—are suffering. That is particularly true of small and medium-sized enterprises. At the same time, many of those involved in north-south trade are prospering. But all those who spoke to us agreed that the present uncertainty is destabilising, and uncertainty is the one thing that all businesses hate. That is why we concluded that a mutually agreed solution between the UK and the EU is the best outcome —but it will require flexibility and compromise on all sides, and it will also require trust.

I am glad that trust is now being re-established. It is a necessary, though not a sufficient, prerequisite for a lasting agreement. I am glad too that negotiations, even technical ones, have been restarted. They will be tough on some issues. On red/green channels for trade with Northern Ireland, for example, or on data transfers, the differences between the UK and EU positions do not seem all that huge to me. On other issues, such as the longer-term divergence between the economies of the UK and the EU, regulatory structures and governance issues, including the role of the ECJ, the differences are much greater and the negotiations will inevitably be tougher. But at least the negotiations have restarted and, if they succeed, the Bill before us will never be needed. But it is before us and the protocol committee of your Lordships’ House has begun an inquiry into it, with evidence sessions tomorrow and over the next few weeks, and with a visit to Belfast and Newry next week.

Meanwhile, there is one question on which I would welcome advice from the Minister in answering the debate. One of the recurring themes of the Northern Ireland committee’s reports has been the need for the Government to take full account of the different shades of opinion in Northern Ireland in formulating their approach to the protocol. We have heard that there is a palpable sense in Northern Ireland that their views are not fully considered. Could the Minister give us an assurance that Northern Ireland opinion will be taken into account as the negotiations proceed? Could he also say how Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland politicians, will be involved in the negotiations themselves?

Queen’s Speech

Lord Jay of Ewelme Excerpts

Thursday 13th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I speak today as chairman of the European Affairs Committee’s new Sub-Committee on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland. The appointment of that committee is a welcome demonstration of the House’s commitment to and engagement with Northern Ireland. In view of recent community tensions and political developments, that engagement is more important than ever. The committee’s membership includes immensely experienced Members from Northern Ireland and Members committed to Northern Ireland from across the House, a number of whom have spoken in today’s debate, and it is a privilege to chair it.

To scrutinise the protocol and consider its impact on the people and businesses of Northern Ireland is not a straightforward task, and recent events have shown how immensely sensitive the protocol is. As proposed by the Liaison Committee at the end of last year, our committee will monitor the protocol’s political and socioeconomic impact on Northern Ireland and its impact on the UK/Irish relationship. In that context, I much welcomed last week’s announcement that the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference established under strand 3 of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement will meet next month for the first time in two years. We shall also scrutinise the EU legislation, amended and new, that will apply to Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland-related work of the governance bodies established under the UK-EU withdrawal agreement. We will hope to produce our first report by the Summer Recess, based on evidence from community, business and political figures—including, we trust, from the noble Lord, Lord Frost.

When I mention that I am now chairing a committee of your Lordships’ House on Northern Ireland, I tend to be asked “Gosh, what is the solution?” I reply that, as so often in life, that is surely the wrong question. The right question, at least for now, is how to reduce the tension and risk of conflicts in Northern Ireland, including this summer, so the different communities can experience the economic and political conditions that they deserve. When the conversation moves across the Irish Sea, I am asked about the solution for Scotland. I should perhaps refer speakers to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. One thing that the last few years have taught us is that it is surely a mistake to hold a referendum without a clear analysis of the economic and political implications, whatever the result. That is surely just as if not more important than the date of a future referendum or the Supreme Court’s view of its legality.

I hope that the United Kingdom will remain united, but I suspect that the price of that will need to be a far more intelligent devolution to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales—and, indeed, to the great cities and regions of England. One day I hope that the reform of this House will properly reflect that diversity and devolution.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Jay of Ewelme Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 308ZA, to which I added my name to those of my noble friends Lady Lister of Burtersett and Lord Judd. I am extremely pleased to follow the other noble Lords who have spoken, particularly the noble Lords, Lord Patten and Lord Murphy.

The amendment is concerned with the equivalence of rights between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The approach outlined would allow for continued institutional alignment in Northern Ireland with the EU-derived safeguards and frameworks that underpin the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. The protection of the Good Friday agreement needs to be considered in its detailed implementation as well as in its broad principles.

As I said, the amendment focuses on the protection of existing EU-derived human rights—safeguards that link to the Good Friday agreement. The equivalence of rights on a north-south basis is a defining feature of the Good Friday agreement. A further signal of the expectation of long-term north-south equivalence is seen in the duty of the joint committee established under the agreement to consider,

“human rights issues in the island of Ireland”,

as well as,

“the possibility of establishing a charter, open to signature by all democratic political parties, reflecting and endorsing agreed measures for the protection of the fundamental rights of everyone living in the island of Ireland”.

The joint committee welcomed the commitment in the draft withdrawal agreement that the UK,

“shall ensure that no diminution of rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity … results from its withdrawal from the Union”.

However, it stated that the Government’s approach would only ensure equivalence of rights on exit day from the European Union and said:

“There is a risk that … a growing discrepancy between UK and EU law will emerge, thus eroding the North-South equivalence of rights in Ireland”.


That would be as a consequence of either the UK or the EU adopting higher standards. The joint committee called for the withdrawal agreement to provide for continuing north-south equivalence of rights post Brexit, as established under the 1998 Good Friday agreement.

Furthermore, the joint committee is concerned that the failure to retain the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and EU equality legislation within the United Kingdom will result in a diminution of rights in Northern Ireland and potentially cause a divergence of rights on a north-south basis. The joint committee—it is worth restating this—calls for,

“the text of the Withdrawal Agreement to commit the UK to retaining in UK law the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU and to enable the UK to keep pace with its evolving protections over time”.

For that reason and for so many more, I support the amendment and the other amendments in the group.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB)]

I support Amendment 261 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patten. I regret that I was unable to take part in the Second Reading debate, because I was with your Lordships’ EU Committee in Dublin, Belfast and Londonderry and on the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Just a little while ago, I was standing on a bridge across the border with traffic thundering past in both directions—EU lorries, Irish lorries and British lorries. It seemed to me inconceivable then and it seems to me inconceivable now that any kind of barriers could be put in the way of traffic moving freely across that lengthy and complicated border. It is extremely hard to see how we can avoid such controls if we are outside the customs union; that seems an extraordinarily powerful and logical reason why the right course for us to take is to stay within the customs union. It is equally clear that the continuing process of peace in Ireland—north and south—depends on the Good Friday/Belfast agreement, and that the strength of that agreement will be greater if it is included in the Bill. For that reason, I support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Patten.

[Lord Eames (CB)]

My Lords, the temperature of our debate this afternoon reflects again the emotions expressed so recently in this House by those of us who live, work and have our being in Northern Ireland. We are sensitive as a people to the fact that your Lordships’ House is hearing on repeated occasions references to “our” problems and “our” difficulties. But this is taking on a different dimension, because what was traditionally our problem is becoming a problem on a much wider scale, for it is becoming the crux of the debate on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom as a nation from the EU.

The problems to which the Good Friday/Belfast agreement has done so much to provide an ongoing solution are so often taken to be not just a matter for the people of Northern Ireland but now central to what people are considering. The difficulty of the border, community relations, human rights—all that long list of human problems was once contained within the borders of Northern Ireland but, as the noble Lord, Lord Patten, so rightly reminded us a few minutes ago, it is becoming crucial to the debate on the future of our withdrawal. None of us wants to apologise to this House for the fact that our local problems now take on international significance. When we listen once more to the experience of former Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, we are reminded that the problems to which I have referred have taken on a dimension that we never envisaged, even at the height of the Troubles.

For that reason, when I read Amendment 261 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patten, I began to wonder whether we were stating the obvious yet again. Are we stating the fact that the importance of the Belfast agreement is such that it is welcome to see it suggested as a part of the Bill? I began to wonder whether other issues deteriorate the importance of reference to the Belfast principles, et cetera. Then I listened a few minutes ago to a debate on another amendment, when we concentrated on giving what someone said were excessive powers to Ministers to look at secondary legislation and have wide-ranging powers to alter the details of policy without addressing the power and supremacy of Parliament. I began to wonder: whether it is possible to visualise the situation in years to come when something as sensitive as the Belfast agreement—something as sensitive as all that the agreement has achieved—could possibly be affected by what we listened to in that previous discussion.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Jay of Ewelme Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her new position as Minister and pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, whose openness and courtesy I greatly welcomed while he was in the job.

I believed that our interest lay in remaining in the European Union and regret the decision to leave, but it was a democratic decision that must be respected. I do not believe, however, that the result of the referendum a year ago said anything about how we should leave the European Union. That is partly, of course, decided for us by Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. It will partly also be decided for us by our 27 soon—alas—to-be former European partners, because that is the nature of negotiations.

However, how we leave will depend also on what we ourselves seek in the negotiations, and the only criterion for determining what we seek in the negotiations—here I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong—is what will be in the interests of the British people; of business; of the thousands who work in the north-east and elsewhere in companies owned by Europeans and indeed by others; of the City; or of those in our security, police and other services who work night and day to protect us. I cannot believe for one moment that it is in any way in their interests that we walk away from the negotiations and leave without an agreement. I can see that advocating that may have some rhetorical value, but—I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me if I say this—it does not seem to show great confidence in our ministerial negotiators or our official-level negotiators to conclude before the negotiations start that they are not going to be able to reach an agreement that is in our interests.

In any case, I suspect that the day after we walked away we would have to walk back. We will still need to trade with the EU; we will still need to co-operate on foreign, security and defence policy; and we shall still need the closest possible co-operation with other European countries on our security. I shall focus on that last point for a moment. One of the most telling conclusions of the inquiries held by the EU Home Affairs Sub-Committee, of which I am a member, has been the virtually unanimous view of the security experts, the police and academics that our interests lie in the closest frictionless co-operation that we can achieve with Europol, Eurojust, the European arrest warrant and the other institutions and bodies that are so essential to our own security. That is easy to say but as Julian King, the British Commissioner with responsibility for security, has said recently, it is not straightforward to achieve. Still, it must surely be in our interests.

The outcome that I fear most from Brexit—here I echo the noble Baroness, Lady Symons—is the risk to security along the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That risk was given far too little attention before, during and immediately after the referendum campaign. I do not know what effect the deal with the DUP will have but it can surely only be a complication. It is none the less encouraging that our Government, the Irish Government, the European Parliament and Michel Barnier, who well understands the importance and sensitivity of the issue, are giving it a high priority. I hope the Minister can give an absolute assurance that whether or not we leave the single market and the customs union—and it will be far more difficult if we leave the customs union—the objective of the Government in the negotiations will be the maintenance of a trouble-free border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.