Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord James of Blackheath and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Tuesday 28th February 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord James of Blackheath (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interfere again but when I read this I got a nasty jangle in the back of my head which said that this does not necessarily fit with what we discussed before, in the days when my noble friend Lord Freud was bringing the Bill through. I remind your Lordships that at that time, I initiated direct discussions with the Royal British Legion on exactly this subject because it is the expert on what is happening, who is suffering and what their state is.

Sadly, the Royal Navy is the principal biggest culprit. Worst affected of all are those who served on the Royal Yacht “Britannia”, which is a terrible scandal. Nearly everybody who served or did anything in the engine room of the Royal Yacht “Britannia” is now either dead or dying from diffuse mesothelioma. The Royal British Legion set up a special department to deal with this, because the tragedy is that people’s wives and children have got it, too, because you have only to wash the coat of somebody who has this to be a condemned person from that moment on. The Royal British Legion has gone to great lengths to make sure that it is monitoring and looking after the wives, families and dependants of these dreadfully stricken people.

At the end of that debate, my noble friend Lord Freud gave an undertaking that he would not do anything that initiated payment structures which interfered with or were diminished by the presence of the Royal British Legion payments, so that people would get the maximum benefits for their hugely distressed situations; that he would look after things to ensure that nothing we did cut across the Royal British Legion’s process, and vice versa; and that it would be wholly co-ordinated. The jangle I got in my head was because I have never heard whether that has happened, and that is why I am asking for some assurance that my noble friend’s undertaking was fulfilled. What is its status today, please? It really matters.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his introduction and explanation of the regulations. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord James, has had a nasty jangle in the back of his head. Clearly, he is concerned about undertakings made in respect of the Royal British Legion. I worked on this—not alongside the noble Lord, Lord Freud, but on the opposite side—and I do not think that anything has arisen in the course of lots of changes to these provisions over a number of years which would be in breach of the undertaking he gave the noble Lord, but it is not for me to defend a former Minister.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, I will put the noble Lord’s assertion to the test with one simple question: can we say with absolute certainty that not one penny from the Royal British Legion has been withheld or interfered with by us through the conflict between its initiatives and ours, and that everybody has gone ahead with the full funding under both arrangements?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

No, I cannot possibly say that. It is not my role as a shadow Minister. If anybody is going to give those undertakings, it is the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and I wish him well.

As we have heard, the regulations cover various compensation schemes, including the ones for pneumoconiosis and other dust-related diseases covered by the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979, and, separately, mesothelioma. The payments are uprated by 1%, which is the September 2016 CPI rate of inflation. One might say that this is a meagre sum, just missing the surge in inflation generated by the decline in the rate of sterling post the referendum, although we acknowledge that there is no statutory obligation to uprate the compensation schedules and that the 1% aligns with the uprating of industrial injuries benefits, as we have heard. Obviously, we support the regulations but I have some questions.

We have no impact assessment for the instruments, although the Explanatory Notes indicate that in the year to March 2016 some 3,520 people made a claim under the 1979 Act, including 310 claims for dependants. I think my question may already have been answered. Can the Minister tell us how many of these claims were successful and can we have an analysis of the various categories of dust-related diseases? I think the noble Lord referred to 3,592 payments. The explanatory memorandum talks about claims. Maybe it is a question of nuances of terminology, but it would good to know the actual number of successful claims. Can we also be provided with an analysis of the amounts of the various claims, how these were funded and the extent to which there has been or will be clawback of social security benefits?

So that we can get the overall picture of the numbers suffering from these dust-related diseases—other than mesothelioma—can we have some detail on what has been covered by employer liability insurance? The ELTO 2015 annual report—when will we get an updated one?—shows an improvement in successful inquiries but apart from mesothelioma itemises only asbestosis and asbestosis-related illnesses. Further, the ELTO report does not cover successful claims which might be made directly to insurers outside of ELTO. Can we be provided with a complete picture of the number of workers entitled to lump-sum compensation arising from the 1979 Act for the latest period available? Can we also be provided with details of how many are missing out on compensation?

The position concerning mesothelioma is different, as we have heard. Diffuse mesothelioma is a fatal cancer of the lining of the lungs or abdomen caused almost exclusively as a result of exposure to asbestos. Symptoms and diagnosis may not emerge until 30 or 40 years following exposure—it is a long-tail disease—and this obviously exacerbates difficulties in identifying relevant employers and employer liability insurers. A number of steps have been taken in recent times to improve access to compensation for sufferers of this terrible condition. In 2008 the previous Labour Government introduced the scheme which is the subject of the regulations before us today. It is a no-fault scheme, so does not require a work-related nexus or proof of negligent exposure to asbestos. It has tended to be illustrated, as the noble Lord, Lord James, said, by exposure caused by washing somebody’s work clothes.

After an initial differential, the rates of compensation under the 2008 Act—for sufferers and dependants—have been separately aligned with the 1979 Act amounts for those with 100% disability, although, as the noble Lord said, there is still the differential between payments in respect of dependants and sufferers. Again, we have no impact assessment, although the Explanatory Note tells us that some 400 people made a claim in the period ended March 2016, including 10 dependants. How many of these claims were successful? How were they were funded? I seem to recall that the original concept was for funding to come from civil claim recoveries. What is the current position? If we are to see the overall picture here, albeit not strictly covered by these regulations, we should consider the further important developments led by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, with the co-operation of the insurance industry. These include the Employers’ Liability Tracing Office, which focuses on assisting claimants to identify an appropriate employer liability insurer. While the 2015 report shows the inquiry success rate improving, it is far from 100%. For mesothelioma, it is just below 77%.

So onward to the diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme—a scheme of last resort—which started making payments from July 2014. It seeks to compensate those negligently exposed to asbestos while at work but who cannot trace the responsible employer or insurer. The scheme is funded by a levy on the gross written premiums of those insurers writing employer liability insurance. It was acknowledged that the insurers could not commit to a levy level above 3% of gross written premiums. In its first year, net payments of £24 million were made, with an average amount of £122,000. The tariff payments, originally at 75% of average civil claims, have risen from 80% to 100%. There is an oversight committee, which my noble friend Lady Donaghy chairs.

In respect of mesothelioma entitlements with an employment nexus, can the Minister let us know for the most recent period available the total number of successful compensation claims and the amounts achieved via employers or insurers, either directly or using the tracing office, and the total number of tariff payments made under the payment scheme? Has the DWP made an assessment for the most recent period of the number of mesothelioma sufferers who have not been able to access either compensation or a tariff payment? What do we understand the reason to be for the shortfall between the expected claims to the payment scheme and outturn for the most recent period? The Minister did give us an updated forward projection of the incidence of mesothelioma: 2,500 cases for the rest of the decade. The Minister is probably aware of the extensive debates we have had on this issue and of the focus on funding for research for sufferers. That has been a positive development.

As a final point, ELTO has made good progress in tracing policies. It is suggested that better access to the employer reference number from HMRC would assist in this. There was an attempt to amend a recent Bill to try to secure that, but it was unsuccessful. Will the Minister tell us what is happening on this issue?

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord James of Blackheath and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, the sole purpose of this amendment is to make sure that we do not lose track of the very important but parallel issue of asbestosis that affects members of the fighting services. I remind noble Lords of the amendments made some six years ago by the former Government that were very much against the interests of former officers and servicemen, particularly in the Royal Navy. There was a very bad record of asbestos-related illness, particularly on ships such as HMS “Furious”, HMS “Albion” and, above all, the Royal Yacht “Britannia”, which was a floating death-trap.

The unfortunate consequences of the amendments made six years ago were that the amount of compensation one was entitled to was reduced very drastically; in addition, the period of claim was limited so severely that it could not possibly allow for the inevitable eventual development of the disease and the justification for a claim. Armed Forces people have been very poorly treated in this and although we are talking here of a different branch of asbestosis, I remind your Lordships that in the insurance world they would not make that distinction. Nobody ever wrote a policy for mesothelioma on its own any more than they wrote one for asbestosis without embracing the generality of it. This is an important factor that has sometimes been forgotten in this debate.

In the matter of the Armed Forces, these people have been left exposed—to a greater or lesser degree—to all the consequences we have been talking about that are associated with this disease. They are going to be somewhat perplexed when they find out that the Government have gone out of their way to pass this splendid Bill to help sufferers of a different form of asbestosis while doing nothing whatever to amend the drastic reductions made six years ago to the terms available to servicemen.

I was very grateful for a joint meeting between the Minister’s department and the MoD, from which I came away with the great expectation that there would be a thorough analysis of data of the actual exposure and the number of cases concerned, and that this would open the way for some sort of parallel accommodation to be agreed. There was no question of dipping into this Bill’s pot to pass money over but there was the suggestion of perhaps a separate pot being arrived at by the Ministry of Defence, which could help to close the gap between the have-nots of the Armed Forces and the haves who will benefit from this Bill.

The reason for this amendment is that, unfortunately, the MoD has not provided the expected data. I talked to the noble Lord, Lord West, about this matter earlier and he showed a keen interest. He was an officer on one of the ships that was greatly affected and had the responsibility of overseeing the engine room replenishment of one. He therefore regards himself as a prime candidate for the condition in time. We have not had those data and it looks as if it is the Navy that has been remiss; yet it is the Navy about which we are most concerned.

May I please send a message via the Minister to ask the Navy to stir its stumps a bit and do something about getting those data to us? We need them. The idea would then be to see what can be done to put together a programme that will not result in a Daily Mail headline such as, “Callous Government plan for the many and abandon their heroes of the seas”. We do not want that, and it would be unfair anyway. We need a commitment to do something for Armed Forces people who have had a very bad deal for the past six years. We need to do something to put it right.

I have tabled this amendment in order to keep people interested in the possibility of having that debate, which we cannot do until we know the data and what can be done. I do not wish to press this amendment tonight but I certainly wish to roll it over to Third Reading, in exactly the same wording, in the hope that by then we will have a more positive approach to how we can arrive at a solution to give some parallel improvement to the terms available to former members of the fighting services. On that basis, I urge the Minister to do whatever he can to stimulate that dialogue. I would be happy to participate in any stage of it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord James, raised this issue with passion and commitment in Committee and, doubtless, previously. I am not sure that I understand all the detail of the proposition he is advancing and the background case but I certainly encourage him to continue with his campaign. I think that the noble Lord was seeking to advance the argument that some people are being dealt with under this Bill but that there are members of our Armed Forces who are not being dealt with on an equivalent basis. He keeps referring to asbestosis. This Bill relates to diffuse mesothelioma, which is different from asbestosis. In fact, we have just set our face against developing a scheme that has broader implications for people with asbestosis.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I hope I made clear the distinction that I am looking at this matter from an insurance industry point of view; namely, that asbestosis covered everything and that six years ago we inadvertently disadvantaged the Armed Forces so severely that we have put them way below the benchmark that we are seeking in this Bill for sufferers of mesothelioma. A comparison is bound to be struck. Veterans’ groups are bound to pick it up and there will be people who are very unhappy to see this deficiency on their part.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification, and I accept the point. If he is comparing people with diffuse mesothelioma who are not being treated on an equivalent basis, it seems that there is a case. I think that I would hang on to my point that asbestosis is different and that we have not sought to address that in this Bill.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord James of Blackheath and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 10th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord James of Blackheath]

Perhaps I may ask the Minister if he will have a meeting with me after I have been to the MoD so that I can get his advice and guidance on what to do next?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, our Amendment 46 is in this group. I will say at the start that I thoroughly support the amendments of my noble friend Lord Howarth. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that the Minister has almost made a rod for his own back in raising hopes and expectations. Those are challenges that he will have to face, and I am sure he is well up to the task. The noble Lord, Lord James, should not apologise for having brought forward his amendment. He is right to say that what he seeks is not an insurance-based solution, but there are issues around inviting comparisons with the progress that has been made.

As we have discussed, the payments scheme relates to those diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma. It therefore excludes other asbestos-related diseases such as asbestos-related lung cancer and asbestosis. It also excludes other work-related, non-asbestos diseases such as pneuomoconiosis. The DWP’s June 2013 analysis quotes the HSE data on industrial diseases, which has an annual estimate of sufferers of asbestos-related diseases of some 3,500—that excludes those suffering from mesothelioma—and of non-asbestos-related industrial diseases of some 4,200. Many of these will face the same problem in identifying a negligent employer, or an employer liability insurer. The DWP’s June note acknowledges that many of the diseases covered do not share the same characteristics as mesothelioma, and that their severity and progression may vary, depending on the heaviness of exposure to asbestos.

It also highlights the fact that, for example, only a small proportion of asbestos-related lung cancers are compensated through government schemes, because of the range of different causes of lung cancer that mask an asbestos cause. Notwithstanding this, and perhaps somewhat strangely, in computing the effect of extending the scheme, it has been assumed in the data that the same proportion of those with diffuse mesothelioma who can access the scheme proposed by the Bill will be able to access an extended scheme, that the same level of scheme payment will be received, and that the same amount of benefit will be recovered. Those are fairly broad-brush assumptions, to say the least. In resisting the amendment, the Minister will doubtless point to the costs of bringing forward an extension of the scheme. On the basis of their estimates over a 10-year period, they suggest that there will be 5,100 successful applicants for other asbestos-related diseases, and 6,100 non-asbestos work-related diseases. There will be an additional levy on insurers of £478 million and £564 million respectively.

At face value, the figures are shocking. It is not so much the amounts as the suggestion that over 10 years, some 11,200 people will miss out. By how much will depend on benefit recovery arrangements, but they could miss out to the tune of £1 billion. If the concentration were just on the other asbestos-related diseases, not expanding the scheme will deny 5,100 people, who will miss out just because an employer has gone out of business or cannot be located and a relevant insurer cannot be established.

The amendment requires the Secretary of State to bring forward proposals within a year to establish other schemes to cover these other diseases. On reflection, limiting this to diseases covered by the 1979 Act may not be the most appropriate approach, and we might seek a different definition on Report. We have been clear that we do not want the pursuit of broader coverage to hold up the scheme of diffuse mesothelioma, and there is no reason why acceptance of the amendment, or my noble friend’s variations, should cause this to happen. It is accepted that it will be difficult to graft on to the mesothelioma scheme the tariff approach, given the varying degrees of suffering that some of the other diseases entail, and that there may be convoluted issues around causation. Therefore, while continuing to acknowledge the merits of the mesothelioma scheme, we should no longer look aside from those people—many thousands on the Government’s own figures—who face terrible suffering because of the negligence or breach of statutory duty of an employer. This is all the more important where access to the state lump sum and social security support is more difficult, as it is for some.

The Minister has come thus far and we have supported and congratulated him on doing so. Indeed, he has expressed sympathy for a broader scheme. Accepting the thrust of these amendments would add to that journey, which I beg him to undertake.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for these amendments, and clearly I am sympathetic to the desire to provide for as many people as possible. Let me deal with the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, in the first instance, and then perhaps I may turn to the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord James regarding members of the Armed Forces.

I recognise the wish to provide for other groups of people who fall foul of poor record-keeping by the insurance industry and so cannot bring a claim for civil damages. There could be another scheme for these people in the future, but as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has just acknowledged, it cannot and will not be this particular scheme. It is neither possible nor realistic to extend it in this way, and that is the reason I must reject these amendments.

The remit of the Bill is strictly related to mesothelioma. However, like many noble Lords, I hope that the momentum generated by this legislation will not dissipate and that further work will be done in the future. Perhaps I may explain why we cannot be flexible on this. I should start by reminding noble Lords about the distinctive characteristics of mesothelioma. The Bill allows for a relatively straightforward and quick scheme to be established. The key points are mesothelioma’s undeniable link to asbestos exposure and lack of co-causality with other factors such as smoking. The unique elements of diffuse mesothelioma allow us to establish a tariff payment scheme of this nature. A streamlined scheme like this would not work for other long-tail diseases. The law of causation is favourable to mesothelioma victims in the sense that it is an indivisible injury. It does not matter who exposed the victim or how many people exposed him, they will all be jointly and severally liable for the same damage. This allows for simplicity when assessing whether someone is eligible for a payment. Assessing liability for other diseases where the causation rules are not the same would involve a degree of complexity that this scheme has not been designed to allow for.

I join noble Lords in their hope that, in the future, other people will be provided for. Until such time, there remain state payments that sufferers of other long-tail diseases can apply for, such as payments made under the 1979 and 2008 Acts. I hope that I have explained and made it clear why this scheme will succeed only if it deals exclusively with mesothelioma, and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Let me now turn my attention to the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord James of Blackheath regarding the creation of a scheme to cover retired or current members of the Armed Forces who were exposed to asbestos and have since developed a related disease. I should clarify that, when I denied the 10 o’clock meeting, one of my representatives sitting behind me today will be at that meeting, and so I will be given good intelligence on what happens.