Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Imbert and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 21st July 2014 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, this order was laid in Parliament on 9 July. The Government are seeking to amend the Police and Crime Commissioner Elections Order 2012, which sets out the rules governing the conduct of elections of PCCs in England and Wales.

Following the deeply sad and untimely death of PCC Bob Jones, your Lordships will be aware that a by-election for the West Midlands PCC is due to take place on 21 August. The instrument before the Committee today changes the existing provisions by making candidate addresses available online during ordinary elections and by-elections. The instrument goes further by seeking to raise voter awareness about candidates standing for PCC in their police area by providing for booklets containing candidates’ election addresses to be delivered to residential premises in the West Midlands by-election on a trial basis.

The Electoral Commission has been consulted about our proposals and it has lent its support to them. Indeed, the proposals stem from recommendations that the Electoral Commission made in its report on the 2012 PCC elections.

The police area returning officer—PARO—responsible for the by-election in the West Midlands stands ready to produce the booklets if the instrument is approved by Parliament. Before considering whether it would be appropriate to use printed booklets in future PCC elections, the Government will evaluate the impact on voter awareness during the trial.

I hope that the Committee will support these measures, which are intended to help voters make informed decisions when voting for their police and crime commissioner. Accordingly, I commend the instrument to the Committee.

[Lord Imbert (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, for putting some flesh on the bones of this proposal. None the less, I would address the cost of this.

As we know, at the time of the original elections, a YouGov poll showed that 65% of those polled did not want the system; 15% did and 20% did not know. None the less, the Government decided to go ahead with it and were a laughing stock when the election took place, when in some polling stations fewer than 10 people attended. I was told in the Chamber that the election cost £50 million.

Now, accepting that the whole system has cost £100 million to date, and if we pursue it until the regular time of the next elections we must accept that it will be another £100 million or so, is it right that this by-election money—another £4 million at the very least—should come out of the public purse as well? I know it is not in the Act, but when the Bill was passing through your Lordships’ House, like others I thought that if something happened to the police and crime commissioner, he or she would hand over to their deputy.

Did the Minister see the television production, “Meet the Police Commissioner”? If not, will he do so? It should be compulsory viewing for the whole Cabinet. It has not become a Whitehall farce but it is being talked about as a Westminster farce. It has become something of a laughing stock. When the police and crime commissioner in Kent allowed the television cameras in, she was asked by the interviewer about her daily workload. He asked, “What is the first thing you do when you arrive in the morning?”, and she said, “My nails”. She has paid herself £85,000. She has a staff of 16. When they get depressed and bored, she brings her dogs into the office to cheer them up. This really is an awful farce. If the Government do not do something to stop this, they will be the laughing stock.

If the by-election costs more than £4 million, could that come out of the money that has been set aside already for the running of the PCC system and not out of the taxpayer’s pocket, although inevitably at the end of the day it comes out of the taxpayer’s pocket anyway? I ask the Minister: how many more—and I mean more—accident and emergency departments are going to be closed in order to keep paying for it? We have already lost dozens of them. I know that the money has to come from somewhere. Would it not be better to spend that money on saving lives rather than saving red faces in the Home Office and the Government?

Metropolitan Police

Debate between Lord Imbert and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 27th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, as my noble friend will know, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and other senior officers meet the Home Secretary and the Minister for Policing on a regular basis. The last public engagement was the launch of the trial of body-worn video equipment that took place late last year and which was also attended by the Mayor of London. Contact between the Home Office and the Metropolitan Police is on an everyday basis because it is such an important link for us. I hope that my noble friend will be reassured by my earlier comments in answering this Question. We recognise the diligence with which the majority of police officers perform their duties on behalf of the public.

[Lord Imbert (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps I may preface my question with a reference to the Home Secretary’s Statement to Parliament made on 6 March on the Ellison report of the inept investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence and related matters such as the inappropriate use of undercover police officers. She said:

“Stephen Lawrence was murdered more than 20 years ago and it is deplorable that his family have had to wait so many years for the truth to emerge”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/3/14; col. 1064.]

I agree entirely with the Home Secretary’s view on the intolerable delay following the first highly unsatisfactory investigation into the murder of that young man.

The Metropolitan Police and policing generally have indeed had their reputations severely damaged by this and other incidents and revelations, but without trying to defend the indefensible, I would like to ask the Minister whether he would acknowledge that the relatively new captain and vice-captain of the Metropolitan Police Service are men of experience, determination and integrity and that, together with the many honest, brave and commendable police officers, they must be given the opportunity to redress the wrongs that have been revealed. I say “brave” officers because two were killed on duty last year and no fewer than 4,890 officers, both male and female, were injured and needed medical attention.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it might help the noble Lord if I just say that I have made it quite clear that we recognise the sense of duty with which our police officers undertake their tasks, and indeed our confidence in the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Imbert and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 4th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, when we discussed police integrity last Thursday, I felt that there was a degree of unanimity in the House. In the debate that we have just had on these amendments, there was also a degree of unanimity, certainly with regard to the direction of travel that we want to see the IPCC adopt. We had a very good debate last week, initiated by my noble friend Lord Paddick, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Doocey for the contribution she made to that debate, and for tabling these amendments today.

As the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and my noble friend Lord Tyler said, we need to address perception as well as reality. The IPCC confidence survey reported that 85% trusted it to handle police complaints impartially but we cannot be complacent in our drive to rebuild the IPCC as a truly independent body.

In connection with Amendment 56QZE, noble Lords will be aware that the Government are transferring resources to the IPCC to enable it to undertake all serious and sensitive investigations—an intention that is entirely consistent with my noble friend Lady Doocey’s amendment. An announcement will be made shortly, in line with the police annual settlement process, on the level of those resources. I can assure noble Lords that the expansion of the IPCC is on track and it will begin to take on more cases from next year.

However, in requiring the IPCC to carry out “the majority of investigations”, the amendment does not specify the nature of those investigations. My noble friend Lady Doocey talked about serious investigations and that is probably what she intends the amendment to deal with. Of course, some complaints made against the police are best dealt with at local level. We will still have the police investigating the police at a local level; for example, where it is a matter of service levels or a lack of civility. But I think we can all see that with the more serious investigations the IPCC must independently be in a position to investigate those matters.

As a Lincolnshire man, I am finely tuned to poachers and gamekeepers. As regards Amendment 56QZF, I note that my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, are anticipating our direction of travel. I appreciate that the requirement for the director of investigations to be someone who has not held the office of constable in the United Kingdom would seem to provide a stronger guarantee of independence. However, I question how the public’s best interests would be served by the IPCC having to dismiss someone who currently performs this function effectively and impartially; indeed, I am doubtful whether this would even be possible under current employment law.

I am with the noble Lords, Lord Condon, Lord Blair and Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, on this issue. We need a skills base within the IPCC if it is to be able to perform the task we expect of it. Similarly, the target—and it is a target, even though the Government have all but forsworn targets—of at least 75% of those employed as investigators by the IPCC being from non-police backgrounds by January 2017 is intended to address concerns about impartiality.

However, this amendment overlooks the steps the IPCC has already taken to ensure a diverse and multidisciplinary staff, and the training scheme aimed at those from a range of backgrounds. It is worth noting that according to the latest published figures, the proportion of investigatory and caseworking staff with a background in policing is below 16%. Of course, what is most important is the way in which all IPCC staff work and their commitment to the values and culture of the organisation. I am sure that the noble Lords, Lord Condon, Lord Blair and Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington—and, I hope, the noble Lord, Lord Imbert—share these sentiments. It is good to have such a distinguished group of former Met commissioners participating in this debate. I am sure they will agree that it is the culture of the organisation that dominates the way in which it responds to its independent role.

Moving to Amendment 56QZG, I can see that for the Home Secretary to receive annual figures on the proportion of staff from non-police backgrounds, and the number and nature of their investigations, would provide a degree of detail and certainty as to operational conditions within the IPCC. However, the commission already has a statutory duty to report to the Home Secretary on the carrying out of its functions each year. It already publishes details of the organisation and its investigations in its annual report and in annual statistics. I can see no benefit from prescribing the content of the annual reports in the way that the amendment seeks to do. Indeed, it might be suggested that that is not a very independent thing for the Independent Police Complaints Commission to be asked to do. I know that is not what my noble friend intends but it would certainly add to the bureaucratic burden of the organisation.

Having said that, I agree with my noble friend that the IPCC must be independent and be seen to be independent. In the light of my comments, I hope that she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Imbert (CB)]

My Lords, as the only other former commissioner here, I feel that I should add my support to their concern about the date.

I have often been told that the best way to catch a slippery officer—one who is corrupt, rude or has no integrity and lies—is to set an experienced, crafty detective chief superintendent, who is honest and full of integrity, to catch him. He knows the moves that that corrupt officer is going to take. It is this experience that I fear we will lose, but we must, in order to show the public that the IPCC is absolutely independent. I agree with the points that have been made about that, and with the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey.

However if we put that date on it, I fear that the IPCC, in its endeavours to get to the position where 75% are non-former constables of the United Kingdom—I hope that that means anywhere, including Australia, Canada, America or wherever—may well select people, whether ex-Customs, military or whoever, who do not have the experience or the time to train properly to catch a corrupt police officer. The date is far too soon. Let the IPPC select people who will make first-class investigators; let us not rush it, please.