Water Companies: Duties and Accountability

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My Lords, we are about to embark on the largest investment in water infrastructure that any Government have ever overseen. This is at a cost, but we can delay the impact of that cost on the customer until 2025. After that, the cost, on average, will be about £12.50 on each bill. If people want more to be spent, however, they must understand that this will be reflected in the cost to customers. We have to be absolutely honest with customers: we are going to spend more now and in the coming years, and rightly so, to eliminate the grotesque image that we have all seen of sewage going into our rivers.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, coming back to sewage discharge, I welcome what the Minister has said about the accountability of water companies. However, will the Government make it obligatory on the companies to have emergency storage capacity to cope with such things as sudden cloudbursts and other emergencies?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We are asking water companies to make all kinds of provision that will address the points the noble Lord has raised. Storm waters have flooded into our rivers for hundreds of years. The difference today is that there are areas of high population dealing with infrastructure that is seeking to catch up. That is what we are investing in. Through the very strict targets we have introduced in the Environment Act, through measures that our regulators are imposing on water companies, and through the delivery of record fines for water companies when they get this wrong, we hope to see—indeed, we insist that there will be—a dramatic reduction in storm overflows.

Animal Health, Plant Health, Seeds and Seed Potatoes (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, first, I commiserate with my noble friend who has to introduce these statutory instruments. I am sure the whole House understands. What we do not understand is why we are doing this at all, as it is manifestly barmy. It just reminds us why we should not be trying to leave the European Union. It really has to be said again and again. When we are talking about invasive species, I can think of one or two whose names will be on the ballot papers when we come to the European elections.

I want to question my noble friend a little about the African swine fever element of this. I declare a family interest. It is not just a question of making sure that there is no spread of invasive African swine fever at our borders but of making sure that it does not spread inside our borders. I am sure my noble friend will not mind me saying so but there is a degree of unhappiness about the large and growing number of wild boars in this country—I refer to the animal species—and the danger that African swine fever will therefore be very difficult to control. Will the Minister take this opportunity to tell the House what measures we are taking internally to complement the external measures he has outlined?

My second point is fundamental. Can anyone imagine circumstances in which we would have different animal and plant health arrangements from the rest of Europe? I cannot imagine circumstances in which, divided as we are by only 22 miles of water, with enormous movement backwards and forwards—unless, of course, we get ourselves into a situation in which it all stops—we could have a system that was not a common system because we are a common area irrespective of our political arrangements. I hope my noble friend, on behalf of the whole Government, will apologise to all the civil servants having to do all this knowing perfectly well that it is a futile exercise because there is no way we can imagine a Britain divided from our nearest and sometimes dearest—sometimes not—friends in the rest of Europe and have different policies in these areas. This is a means of protecting ourselves from a common enemy, and that common enemy is disease spread by the movement of plants and animals.

In case my noble friend feels I am being entirely negative on this matter, the third point I shall raise with him is that the reason it is important for us, even in a repeat debate such as this, to remind people of the futility of the exercise is that, so far, that message has not got out as far as it should. People still do not understand that we are bound so closely to our neighbours that we either have a sensible arrangement between us called the European Union or we have a much more difficult arrangement in which, from piece to piece and from time to time, we try to sort these matters out.

I accept my noble friend’s very understandable apology for reintroducing these regulations and I in no way criticise him, but I just want to say that it is yet again a misuse of this House and these parliamentary procedures. We would never have been here if anyone had behaved sensibly and recognised that, in the end, if the people were presented with the alternatives and were able to make a sensible decision, they might indeed ask why on earth no one had explained that much of what we do here we have to do anyway, and all we are doing is making life more complex, more difficult and more illusory. We are pretending to do something—pretending to take back control—and I really am fed up with being part of a pretence.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as stated in the register—in particular in forestry. We have to learn from past sad experience—for example, over Dutch elm disease, which has wiped out the great majority of all the elms of southern England. At this very moment, we are grappling with ash bud disease, which can make the timber of ash completely useless, except as firewood. Other, lesser infections and importations have affected chestnut trees, oak and larch, and one hopes that they are not spreading or getting more serious. Invasive weeds have been mentioned, notably by the Minister, and on quite a few occasions your Lordships have discussed Japanese knotweed, but I will say no more about that.

I notice that of course the regulations are unamendable —incidentally, I apologise for not having been present when they were discussed earlier—but I trust that the Government have devised the very best possible protection. As an island, we are better placed than those with land frontiers to protect our stock of plants and trees, but we should try to benefit from our natural advantages and devise the very best possible protection.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend was emphatic about the stringency of the controls over the import of ash wood to this country. I take it that that means that no leaf and no centimetre of bark will come in. However, would he take this opportunity—alternatively, perhaps he would write, as I have given no notice of this question—to compare the progress of the disease in Britain and the United States and to compare the methods of control of the disease in those two countries?

Brexit: Support for Farming

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I give my noble friend the absolute assurance that these two consultations on the two Green Papers will allow the environment and farming to run hand in hand, as they have always done when they work well. We are looking forward to farming interests and all other interests making a contribution. We absolutely want a world-leading agricultural industry and an improved environment. The two can work hand in hand.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as on the register. Will the Minister say whether the consultation papers will refer to and explain the old system of deficiency payments commodity by commodity, which served this country so well before we joined the EEC?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord the precise content of the consultation, but I would say that this is about looking forward. We want to hear from the stakeholders who are affected by these matters what arrangements they believe would ensure that we can have a vibrant agricultural policy. As I say, we want to have as many responses to the consultations as possible, because that is the way we can shape practical policies—after all, we want practical arrangements.

Forest Holidays: Forestry Commission Stake

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I can confirm most of what the noble Lord said. The terms under which the current joint venture operates are very much the same as for the original joint venture. If the controlling interest is sold, the Forestry Commission may be required to sell its interest in the company by the buyer, including the Forestry Commission’s stake in the business. The sale would not change the controls set out in the framework agreement and the site leases.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my entry in the register of interests. Public access and amenity are obviously most important, but they are not the only consideration. When it comes to marketing, will the Government ensure that the Forestry Commission does not intentionally undercut private owners and producers?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, although that is slightly wide of the Question, I think I can none the less confirm what the noble Lord says.

Thames Tideway Tunnel

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Wednesday 14th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, there is quite a lot in that question, but I should say to the noble Lord that Labour harps on about the cost of living, yet its own policies—spending commitments totalling £27.9 billion since 3 June last year, unworkable energy policies and increased borrowing—would increase it.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, when tenders are received, will the Government consider whether storm water and grey water can be separated, thus requiring a shorter tunnel and reduced charges?

[Lord De Mauley]

We have thought very carefully about that, my Lords, and we have concluded that it would be more expensive. However, as I said, green infrastructure and SUDS solutions are part of the long-term solution.

Independent Panel on Forestry Report

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. We have addressed the impact of a gap between rural development programmes by encouraging applicants who were originally considering applying for grants in 2014 to bring these forward to 2013. The Forestry Commission is presently considering applications to fund the planting of up to 2,600 hectares of woodland in 2014. The current RDP has seen over 12,000 hectares of woodland planted and funded through the English woodland grant scheme. Current applications for planting in 2014 therefore represent an annual planting rate above that in the rest of the current programme.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as on the register. Is the Minister aware that I have a children’s forest school in one wood and much used public access in another? However, this question is not just about greenery and fresh air. Do the Government accept the report’s point about the economics of our forestry and its supply chain? What resources will they provide for adding value to British timber, not just using it for firewood and biomass?

[Lord De Mauley]

That is an important point. The Grown in Britain initiative is genuinely making a difference. Early successes show that it is already delivering results, including gaining commitment from several major corporates to buy or stock more home-grown wood products. To date, 19 major UK contractors-group companies, with a collective turnover of over £24 billion, have pledged to look into ways of procuring more British timber. Grown in Britain is also forging partnerships with businesses in the construction sector to seek good examples of projects using British-grown timber to promote as case studies for other forestry supply chains to follow. There is a lot going on in that sector, and it is important.

Forestry: Independent Panel Report

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, yes, this is a very important matter. We have a plant and tree health task force, which has reached the conclusion of its report. It has recommended that the Government develop a UK plant health risk register and provide strategic and tactical leadership for managing those risks. It has also recommended a number of other courses of action, including developing and implementing procedures for preparedness and contingency planning to predict, monitor and control the spread of pests and diseases. We have accepted both of these recommendations and are making progress on them. It has also recommended a number of other courses of action, which we are actively considering. I had a meeting last week with stakeholders from across the interested parties to discuss those recommendations.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I declare my interest as on the register. Do the Government have a policy for increasing manufacturing capacity for all kinds of wood products, not forgetting poplar in particular?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the noble Lord has reminded me that I should have declared an interest as a woodland owner. He essentially asks what we are doing to make the woodland industry more creative. There is a new concept called Grown in Britain, which is creating a new and stronger market pull for the array of products derived from our woodlands and forests. We are developing private sector funding that supports the planting and management of woodlands and forests through funding from corporates, as part of their corporate social responsibility, and we are connecting together and harnessing the positive energy and feelings towards our woodlands and forests that many in our society share to create a strong wood culture.

Subsidiarity Assessment: Food Distribution (EUC Report)

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Byford]

My Lords, I should like to reinforce what my noble friend Lady Sharp has just said. I declare that I am also a member of Sub-Committee D. Unfortunately, through illness, I could not be here last year to participate in the discussions. I have one or two basic questions for my noble friend when he comes to reply. Like others, I certainly think it is the responsibility of individual member states to look after those who are in need; that is the best way to supply it.

However, the proposal was to raise the sum of money to €500 million. My question to my noble friend is: which countries have benefited from it and how much have they had? Although the UK takes the very clear stance that it should be done locally, which I hope my noble friend will reflect in his comments, clearly the money will come from Europe, to which we contribute. If the Minister has figures that he can share with us tonight, I would be interested to hear them. If he does not, perhaps he will write to us to let us know. It seems a very unusual situation—to be opposed to something that is being proposed and will be imposed, over which we have no control except to have the debate that we are having here tonight. I should just like to reinforce my concerns about the way in which it is being proposed.

Some 17 member states and some 18 million people benefited back in 2010, but, as other noble Lords have said, when there was a surplus it made sense to use it and distribute it. However, that is not the situation that we face today. I assure noble Lords that buying in from the market is not the cheapest way to do things. Therefore, we look to my noble friend for some steer on the Government’s thinking about how they will deal with what is proposed, and how we can say, “No, we don’t think this is a good idea”. As one of the member states, we are presumably committed to providing that money up front.

I apologise to other noble Lords for not being able to take part in discussions last year through illness, but I am very glad that we have had the debate tonight. I reinforce my support for the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Carter, and for the comments of other noble Lords. Clearly the situation should not continue.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, it is very good to hear the principle of subsidiarity being upheld and defended. I am also inclined to think that this House should be consistent in maintaining the reasoned opinions that it has previously given.

The Commission, and perhaps some member states, might like to examine how food stamps in the United States have worked out in practice. The United States probably has less comprehensive and less long-term social welfare arrangements, compared to many European countries. On the other hand, I expect those who devised the food stamp scheme took full account of the interests of commercial food producers and of the market generally.

I conclude by asking the Government how many civil servants within the Commission have been employed, or are still employed, in dealing with these matters. If things go ahead in the way that we wish, will some of them no longer be needed? What will happen to them? Having said that, I support the Motion.

[Lord Grantchester]

Like others, I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Roper, and my noble friend Lord Carter of Coles for the work of European Union Committees that they chair and for their exposition tonight. The House has heard that this is essentially a repeat of the Motion debated on 3 November last year, since the amended Commission proposal does not materially alter the thrust of the original document. All sides of the House concur that the revised food distribution programme is still defective, as the substance and objective of the measure remain basically the same.

We have heard how the proposal has fared since the debate last year. In April this year, the European Court of Justice annulled the provisions of the 2009 distribution plan providing for purchases on the market. As a consequence, the budget for 2012, based entirely on intervention stocks, accounts for only €113 million against a proposed €500 million. This is a success indeed against the mission creep of the original scheme. However, in July, the European Parliament called on the Commission and the Council to develop a solution to avoid a sharp cutback in food aid as a result of the reduction in funding. The memorandum states:

“Numerous representations of the European civil society, ranging from local authorities to NGOs and charities, have expressed their worries for the future of the scheme”.

This suggests that it will not be a simple matter to resolve the situation in the manner this House would wish. The Minister at last year’s debate, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, assured the House that no charitable organisations in this country had asked the Government to participate in the scheme. He also stated that,

“no member state at the moment actually supports the scheme”.—[Official Report, 3/11/10; col. 1691.]

Where does the support for this programme seem to come from? There does not appear to be a member state that looks on this as part of its budget. Is there any similarity or region characteristic to the 18 million people said to have benefited as recently as 2010?

On cofinancing, the memorandum states, in very similar fashion, and again on page 4:

“National authorities of participating member states and very numerous representatives from the civil society have recently expressed their wish for the scheme to remain fully funded out of the EU budget”.

What discussions have taken place between those member states and the Government? While the Minister last November, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, commented that there was some way to go before this proposal would succeed, the intervening period seems to underline that the proposal’s supporters will not easily be deterred. The Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions of the European Union also came out in favour in January this year.

I support the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roper, and commend the committee for its deliberations. I understand that although the question of subsidiarity did not feature in the treaty of Rome, the position is covered under the Lisbon treaty that, in matters of shared competence, the EU can act only and in so far as the objectives of the proposal cannot be sufficiently achieved by member states. Could the Minister clarify the Government’s position? Are the Government content that the reversal to the original intention to distribute only out of intervention stocks could still continue, albeit now on a much reduced budget? Do the Government consider that the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union can be used as a legal base to the amended proposal? I look forward to the Minister’s update and his proposals to carry forward the determination shown tonight by all sides of the House against the amended proposal.

Defra: Research and Development

Lord Hylton Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I assure the noble Baroness that this is high on the agenda. Indeed, as she probably knows, the Government are funding a pollinator programme—not just bees but other pollinating insects are vital for the biodiversity that we are seeking to maintain. I have seen for myself the work being done at FERA in York, where not only are the problems affecting bees being looked at, but we are very alert to the Asian hornet and the threat that that poses. I have personal acquaintance with such insects from when I occasionally visit France, so I know that they are a real threat to bee-keepers and honey production.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, my interests are already fully declared in your Lordships’ Register. Does the Minister agree that the number of farmers has declined sharply in recent years, particularly dairy producers? Is there not, therefore, a need for research on higher value crops to be made known to farmers? Perhaps some of these could replace some imports.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. I come from a horticultural background so am very much acquainted with the enormous potential for import substitution in these markets. I would like to think that the progress that is being made in yield increases from dairy cows is the sort of thing that we can see sustainably projected across the whole of agriculture. However, we need to be aware that it affects the number of viable herds in this country. That is one of the consequences of this investment in this area. However, the noble Lord is correct that giving farmers the knowledge to achieve these challenges is the most important thing.