Iran

Debate between Lord Howell of Guildford and Baroness Afshar

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

To answer my noble friend’s last question first, it has been the constant position of Her Majesty's Government that we would like Israel to come out fully and join the non-proliferation treaty if, as is widely alleged, it has nuclear weapons. We have not been given any firm facts on that, but it is an important aspect. As to Israeli action, that is constantly debated. Again, we have not been hesitant in making clear that action by Israel against Iran would lead to very dangerous developments. We take a very strong view that that is not the way forward and is at all costs to be avoided. That is the position vis-à-vis Israel.

My noble friend is absolutely right that one of Iran’s claimed excuses, shall we say, for pushing ahead—one of its reasons for defying IAEA resolutions and UN resolutions, as it has—is that it should have nuclear weapons because it says that Israel has a nuclear weapon. That reality must be faced. My noble friend is not entirely right in saying that Iran is not in defiance of resolutions; it is; it has broken resolutions in the past. I hope that I did not misinterpret what she said on that. This is the problem: we have a regime in Tehran that cannot be trusted and has been declaring that it was co-operating and collaborating with NPT and IAEA resolutions when it was not, as has been revealed by various alarming discoveries along the way.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords—

[Lord Gilbert]

My Lords, should we not all calm down a little about this? The Iranians think that they have total justification for possessing nuclear weapons. For the life of me, I cannot see any case against their having a nuclear weapon. Who on earth are they going to use it against? If anyone says Israel, you cannot imagine a more suicidal act for a country to perform than to launch a nuclear weapon against Israel. That would mean the total incineration of Iran. We ought to realise that with the Iranians we are dealing with people who deal in braggadocio, who say things they do not mean that sound great on television for local consumption. We should calm down—let them get on with it and waste their money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Afshar]

I declare an interest as someone who was born in Iran and still works very closely with Iranian academics. My worry is that in Iran views are very divided about nuclear weapons, but the moment there is a threat of sanctions and a threat against Iran, it is likely that even among those who are absolutely opposed—I work with the resistance movement—a great many would back the Government. The fear of Israel is very real, and the idea that there is one law for Israel and one for Iran is absolutely understood by Iranians. The idea that Britain will bring its Army or Navy will be seen as armed defence of Israel. That would undermine any negotiations on the table. It would be very much better if negotiations were conducted perhaps a bit more quietly and with less threat. As an academic, I know that we are suffering enormously because brilliant Iranian students who want to do postgraduate work in this country cannot do so. As someone who came to this country as a student I can tell you that sometimes we turn good.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness speaks with a lot of experience and understanding in her analysis of the psychology of the Iranian policy-makers and the Iranian Government, which, as she rightly said, is a divided house in itself. All kinds of internal conflicts are going on inside Iran. As to the question of getting back to negotiation, that is something that we all want. The aim of this policy, as my right honourable friend in the other place has made clear this afternoon, is to bring Iran back to the negotiating table, and to do so in ways that will then lead to a sensible discussion of its nuclear programme and recognising its rights, if conducted properly and in accordance with NPT and IAEA resolutions and requirements, to have civil nuclear power. That is recognised, but negotiation there must be. Bringing Iran back to the table is the task. So far, doing that by saying, “Please come back”, and through the normal diplomatic niceties has proved totally inadequate. That is why we have come to the point when the pressure must be increased and the Iranians must be brought back to the table. Any suggestion that instead they will grow more violent and take action to close international waterways must be totally rejected and opposed.

Immigration: Deportation of Iraqis

Debate between Lord Howell of Guildford and Baroness Afshar

Tuesday 22nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The answer is that we monitor it as closely as we possible can. The noble Lord will appreciate that there are bound to be some limitations on the detailed monitoring and tracking of every individual, but through the UK Border Agency and its standard procedures we seek to track the situation as closely as possible.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, is it not the case that in the absence of the close monitoring of returnees, the UNHCR is one of the few organisations that is sufficiently well connected to follow up where people go, particularly in Kurdistan which is highly divided on a tribal basis and where it is almost impossible for any foreign agency to have enough information unless it comes internally? The inability to follow what happens to individuals who are returned means that all kinds of blood feuds that might have been quietened during the person’s absence rekindle and begin again. We need to know that there is long-term security for people who have sought asylum in this country.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course we appreciate the very difficult history of Kurdistan and the rest of Iraq, but it is the judgment of the agency and of the independent courts that, at this time, the signs are that Kurdistan is coming together more, that it is a less unstable country, that there is evidence of growth, peace and development and that it is safe to return people who no longer need our protection and should not have been here in the first place.