British Council

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 13th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Keeley (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords—

Chagos Islands

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The negotiations were conducted state to state. Regrettable though it may be, it is a fact that the Chagossians were not party to that, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, is right to remind us of it. The Chagossians have been terribly treated since their forced removal all those years ago. My own view is that it is better and fairer to the Chagossians to be clear that, as long as that base is there on Diego Garcia, there will be no ability for them to resettle that island. That is the fact of the situation that we are in, and to give any hope of anything otherwise would be irresponsible and a mistake. But, as the noble Lord says, there will be a process, and the involvement of both Houses of Parliament will be needed as we put the treaty before them and make the appropriate legislative changes that are needed for this deal. As the noble Lord says—and I look forward to it—the voices of Chagossians will be heard through their representatives in this House and in the other place.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure there are great complexities behind this issue which maybe we have not been fully briefed on. One curiosity is that the Chagos people do not feel great fondness for Mauritius at all. It is 1,000 miles away, and it is a puzzle as to why we have somehow got tangled up with Mauritius, with its present inclinations in the direction of China. Should we not be much more acutely aware than we are of the intense Chinese interest in every move in this area, where they see great advantages for themselves? Indeed, they see it as a major part of the general hoovering-up of small islands around the world, including many in the Commonwealth, as part of their grand strategy to dominate the maritime area. Should we not be a bit stronger on that?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is precisely because we need to ensure the legal certainty of the Chagos archipelago and the ability of the base to operate and function fully. That is so important to security, as I am sure the noble Lord agrees, and is not something that our adversaries would wish to see established. This deal strengthens our presence and arrangements in Chagos.

I am aware that the Chaggosians in this country do not, in large part, agree with this deal and, as the noble Lord says, they do not feel an identity or affinity with Mauritius. These things happened during decolonisation, and that is why we find ourselves in our present legal situation. However, it is also true that there are Chaggosians living in Mauritius who take a different view. There is not one view of this deal from the global Chaggosian community.

Rules-based International Order

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on getting this subject before your Lordships yet again. As she said at the end of her speech, absolutely correctly, this is just a small matter of the future of the world, and it is certainly the future of liberal democracy and capitalism, or the socialised versions of capitalism that we need to be working to develop and preserve. This is not the first time we have looked at this subject; we have returned to it many times in your Lordships’ House over the years, and rightly so. There are two reports in particular that I think are worth scrolling back to as we try to breathe some momentum into the whole subject.

The first was the December 2017 report from the International Relations and Defence Select Committee, UK Foreign Policy in a Shifting World Order. Going back further, the second was the March 2014 ad hoc Select Committee report, Persuasion and Power in the Modern World. I had the honour and privilege of chairing both committees and I think both reports had some influence in encouraging the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as it was then called, to start taking the whole issue of the soft and smart power dimensions of our world interests and influence much more seriously, and, I hope, led up to and connected with yesterday’s soft power initiative taken by the present Government at Lancaster House. I am glad that the idea is alive, but it needs to be connected with the other great issues we are discussing today.

The more recent report went much deeper still into what was happening in the world, which is widely disputed, and why. That “why” is the most important aspect of all because, unless we really understand the real and root causes of this now very troubled world, where we have the highest and most dangerous number of conflicts since the Second World War and where trust is undermining democracy on all sides, will never be effective in our focused efforts to halt the downward spiral of democracy going on at the present time. It is a sad contrast to our high hopes at the end of the Soviet Union.

Not all that many experts and commentators seem to quite grasp what is happening. Of the ones who certainly have—there are some very authoritative and excellent voices—several gave evidence to our 2018 enquiry. The best one of all was a very senior and good public servant of the nation, Sir Mark Lyall Grant, former National Security Adviser and our man at the United Nations, who held all sorts of other high offices as well. Certainly, speaking personally, he always gave me superb support when I visited the United Nations in New York as a Minister.

He is rightly quoted in the Library briefing that has been supplied on this debate—although unfortunately the briefing gets his name wrong. It is not just “Lyall”, it is Sir Mark Lyall Grant. He said:

“The most visible features”


of the world we are now living in

“are new centres of world power and influence”.

A vast shift has taken place in world power. He added that there was increasing populism, as has already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and others, and

“nationalist pressures, far-reaching networks of crime and terror, new and empowered networks of political dissent and assertions of identity”

of tribes, cells, groups, communities, localities and mini-nations,

“the rise of non-state actors and movements, the disruption, and in some cases”

total

“destruction of established industries, the distortion and corruption of news and views on a worldwide scale”,

which the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, rightly emphasised and which is of course growing by the hour, particularly with AI, which can bring great good to our lives but can also do great damage, and is doing so already,

“and mass movements of migrants and refugees”,

which we do not really know what to do about. Sir Mark went on in our report that it was very clear

“that the influence of the ongoing digital revolution and the accompanying global connectivity on an unprecedented scale”

affects

“every sphere of modern existence”

and

“plays a central role in this turbulent scene”

that we now face.

I think Sir Mark has really got it. He really shows how deep we must go in seeking to contain the onward march of technology, which is disrupting human relations on a global scale and threatening not only international stability but the safety and security of every family, man, woman, and child, and every nation’s integrity and unity, including ours.

I refer to the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, again, because he has been such a good Commonwealth Minister over the years. He asked where we should start to rebuild. Obviously, right now we would like to solve the horrors of Gaza and Ukraine. We may even get some good news tonight on Gaza—although I fear it will only be temporary, whatever comes. They are the worst running sores.

They are not necessarily the deepest sores, because the real problems may lie in the Pacific and around China, but all this has yet to unfold. We certainly have to build on new collective international organisations. There are those who say, “Start again”, but I do not think you can do that; you have to build on the United Nations. We must take the Security Council issue really seriously day by day. The trouble is, of course, that it has been wrecked by Russia and China sitting in the middle of it like cuckoos in the nest. We have to move, we have to go for new alliances, we have to think of our neighbours in Europe. If the European Union is not going to move in the directions we want, we have to think about new European structures, perhaps through the European Political Community. Now that the spine of the old EU has broken, with France and Germany no longer co-operating, clearly, new structures are required and we should take a lead there.

Finally, we have to re-energise the Commonwealth, again as the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, remarked. It is a safe harbour for the neo non-aligned nations of the world which do not want to be under either American or Chinese hegemony. Oddly enough, mention of the Commonwealth still seems to be very difficult for the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office today to come to terms with. It is in fact the network of the future that is going to help more than possibly any other.

I divide the world between those who have grasped the enormity of what is now happening—the biggest shift since the Gutenberg printing press, the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution—and those who have not grasped it and remain glued like errant insects to the surface of events. Events now will not wait for interminable reviews, commissions and councils. Whether in politics, business and investment or social development, events, technology and innovation will pass them all by, and are already doing so.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Cryer) (Lab)]

I apologise for interrupting. I just point out that, apart from the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, every speaker so far has gone well over the seven-minute limit. If we carry on like this, it will eat into the wind-up speeches, so could we observe the seven-minute limit, please?

Sub-Saharan Africa: Diplomatic Relationships

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 14th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I could not have put that better myself. It was a very helpful summary of where we are. On aid, we are committed to the 0.5%. We have an ambition to get back to where we ought to have been at 0.7%, but noble Lords will understand the inheritance we received—I do not need to mention the £22 billion black hole as my noble friend is here beside me.

The noble Lord is completely right to highlight the World Service and the British Council. He will notice the financial support we were able to provide the World Service in the recent Budget, and we are working closely with the British Council to make sure it is put on a stable footing because it is essential as one of the finest soft power assets this country possesses. He referred to Russia and China, and clearly it is for African nations to decide their own international partnerships, but many have expressed the view that they wish to work more closely with the United Kingdom and we are very open to that as part of our new approach.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, is it not a slight pity that so far in this exchange there has been no mention of the Commonwealth network? There are 22 Commonwealth countries south of the Sahara. They are the main bulwark against Chinese and Russian incursion. Is it not time for us to have a rather more central role for the Commonwealth in our thinking about Africa and to commit more seriously to Commonwealth countries, several of which now wish to join in addition to the existing 22? It is a growing organisation and we should support it vigorously.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That was very well put. I could have mentioned the Commonwealth; it is a vital multinational grouping, as the noble Lord says. I work closely with many Caribbean nations where the Commonwealth is well represented, and that needs to form part of our thinking in the future. I thank him for raising it.

Chagos Islands: UK-US Defence Relationship

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is right. Self-determination is fundamental when it comes to other overseas territories, most notably the Falkland Islands. We have made that very clear. The issue here is different. These issues date back to decolonisation, as my noble friend says, and the legal status. Those were very different times, and there was a move then to separate the colony, which is not allowable under international law. That is why we have ended up where we have.

It is right that we engage with the Chagossians and that we listen and understand. They will now have the right to return to the Chagos Islands but not to Diego Garcia. That is a much better position than they have been in over recent decades. What I do not want to see is the Chagossian community used and abused as a political football because some parties have decided that this is a good way to make political capital at their expense.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a great deal of sense. However, in informal contacts that I have had with Chinese officials and diplomats, they have shown enormous interest in this whole issue, particularly regarding the position of Mauritius, to the point of writing down every word of what they think that they have heard. The report seemed to be that Mauritius remains quite friendly with China. Can the Minister reassure us that, in this rather new situation in the world which the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred to, this dimension is being studied very carefully? This is part of a long-term Chinese strategy, which we can see, of hoovering up Commonwealth countries.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are very well aware of the activities in the Indian Ocean. I remind noble Lords that Mauritius is one of the few African states not to be taking part in belt and road. It is a close ally with India but, of course, we are concerned deeply about any actions of any state that may jeopardise security in Diego Garcia. We have put that front and centre of our negotiations, and we feel that this secures the base on Diego Garcia in a much better way than it has been handled over recent decades.

Taipei Representative Office in the United Kingdom

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we value the work of the WHO and the contribution that Taiwan has made through the World Health Assembly. We will continue to support its participation, because we believe that everyone who has something to contribute to this important organisation and its work should be supported in doing so.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the Chinese say that, if necessary, they will surround and besiege the island of Taiwan in three hours. That is their estimate and they have positioned forces to do it. They will then be surrounding an island that produces about 39% of the world’s larger industrial chips and probably an even greater percentage of domestic microcircuits, which really create the modern world, so we would be in a very serious position. Can we work closely with the Taipei Representative Office here and all our Taiwanese friends to foresee and prepare for the problems with such a situation in various ways, including by developing our own microchip industries 10 times more vigorously?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right to remind us of the precariousness of a situation arising such as he describes. It would be very dire indeed for the world economy. It would take around 10% of the world’s GDP, and no country, including China, would be immune to that impact.

Jailing of Hong Kong Pro-democracy Activists

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I was among the people in the other place who called for the BNO passport holders to be given the rights that they have, and we will continue to do that. That is one way in which we stand up for the people of Hong Kong. The other way is through using our voice when we can. The view that this Government take—and I appreciate that this is a different take on this from that which the previous Government had—is that, through some engagement, we might be better able to effect the kind of change that we would all wish to see.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think that this is a party point at all. It all seems a bit defensive. Has not the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, got a point? We find all the time the Chinese trying to undermine our democracy by various subterranean or covert arrangements inside this country and in many other parts of the world, including most of the Commonwealth. Can we not at least be reassured that we are using the same degree of ingenuity to undermine completely false claims by the Chinese, particularly where they are flouting United Nations directives themselves? Can we establish that, while we have to trade and work on climate issues with the Chinese—you cannot just cancel them—nevertheless, we will be absolutely determined to hold them to the rule of law, which if they undermine they will pay the price for?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I agree with the gist of what the noble Lord has just said. He is right to point out that we have concerns with China on issues of human rights, and we raise them; we seek opportunities to do so. We do have a trade relationship with China and we also have global challenges on climate, health and other issues. It is in our best interests to co-operate and collaborate with China, but we will compete when we need to and we will not shy away from challenging when that is right as well.

Chagos Islands

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

What is important is that Chagossians have the right to visit and return that the Mauritian Government will be free to enable. This is new, and some Chagossians have said that they wish to see this. It will now be possible under this deal. On the record of the previous Government, it is not for me to say whether the outrage is faux—others will judge. But I will say that I regret very much the implication by some on the Opposition Benches—by no means all, and I do not point the finger at the noble Lord, Lord Callanan—to attempt to co-opt other overseas territories into this, and to somehow suggest that there is a vulnerability there, which there is not. This is a unique situation, and I am glad that we have been able to move this forward and resolve it. It secures our base in the Indian Ocean and gives certainty on that and to Chagossian communities here.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness’s brief will probably be telling her, the Chinese are taking an immensely close interest in what is happening in the Chagos Islands and Mauritius. Can she reassure us that the Foreign Office has a clear focus on how the Chinese are playing this situation and what they are up to generally, in the Chagos Islands and in many other islands and coastal states of the Commonwealth, where they are involving themselves increasingly closely?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We consider this issue closely. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that Mauritius is a close ally of ours and of India, and it does not take part in the Chinese belt and road initiative. It is our view that the stable, secure and long-term arrangement we now have protects the Chagos Islands from any interest from any other parties that we would not wish to see.

China: Human Rights and Sanctions

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend, as does the Foreign Secretary. These issues are raised. The sanctions against parliamentarians for things they have said are completely unwarranted and unacceptable. The Foreign Secretary met with Speaker Hoyle before his trip to China to reiterate that this was a concern to him. It is a concern to the Foreign Secretary and to all of us in the Government. It is inappropriate that parliamentarians in this and the other House should be sanctioned in this way, and we will consistently raise this with China.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that it is right to raise where Chinese behaviour is deplorable and to challenge China robustly, but should we not seek to switch the emphasis to a less defensive and more positive side? We can outsmart the Chinese by showing that our kind of liberal capitalism, when we reform it—it needs reforming—is vastly superior to anything they can deliver, and that freedom under the law and free speech are of more benefit to nations than falling under the Chinese hegemon, as they will find in time. If the security and prosperity of the developing world are the prime requirement, the Commonwealth contains six of the fastest-growing economies in the world—a very much better bunch than the dodgy deals of BRI and other arrangements with the Chinese, where countries just find themselves loaded with more and more debt. Is there not a more positive side to take, as well as raising these issues that have very properly been raised?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

On this Government’s approach, we want a consistent, strategic and pragmatic relationship because we think that is the best way to make progress on some of these issues that are of concern to all sides of the House. The way that we are describing this is that we will co-operate where we can, compete where we need to and challenge where we must.

Somaliland

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right in her strong support for Somaliland, but that does not change our position on the question of recognition of Somaliland as an independent state. She is right, and we have a very long-standing and deep relationship with Somaliland, not least because of the large number of Somalis living here in the UK, but also our support for the port there, for health, education, security and in many other ways. We are very pleased to continue that relationship.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, are we sure that we have got this completely right? I remember 10 years ago at the Foreign Office having to give exactly the same answers about this as the Minister has given now. On reflection, and in totally changed conditions, particularly in the Middle East and in east Africa, surely those new considerations come in. Why do we have to wait for every other nation to recognise and help Somaliland? It is an extremely feisty country, if I might use that word. It is quite well run and passionately pro-British. It would do us enormous help to have a good friend in that very sensitive area, with the Chinese pouring in next door. It makes utter sense for our own foreign policy to think about this positively. Would the Minister take it back to the Foreign Office and ask it to think again?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Well, I am very pleased to provide consistency in the Government’s approach. The UK needs to tread carefully in the Horn of Africa in regard to this, given the situation that the noble Lord has just described. We have strong links; we have a permanent diplomatic presence in Somaliland. But my sense is that it would not be the right thing to do for stability in the wider region to wade in and take such an action at this time.