House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Howe of Aberavon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, makes two valuable points. First, he is entirely correct that there is a firm line of thought between the conclusions of the royal commission chaired by my noble friend Lord Wakeham, the White Papers produced by the Labour Party when it was in government, the draft Bill and, indeed, the Bill that we have published today. That is why I have said that very little is new in all this; the noble and right reverend Lord is entirely correct. The second point that he raises is more difficult and more intriguing. It is right that unless former distinguished Members of the House of Commons were prepared to stand for election under their party label, we would lose some of that expertise. Having said that, I do not think that it would be beyond the terms of reference of the statutory Appointments Commission to select a small number of most eminent politicians—a very select few—who might be interested in serving the nation and this House without a party political label.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, my noble friend will surely remember that it is only a few years ago that the Public Administration Select Committee of the House of Commons concluded that the principal cause of today’s widespread public disillusionment with our political system is the virtually untrammelled control by the Executive of the elected House of Commons. The committee reached important conclusions. First, that there is a need to ensure that the domination of Parliament by the Executive, including the political party machines, is reduced and not increased and, secondly, that,

“the second chamber has to be neither rival nor replica … but genuinely complementary”,

to the Commons, and therefore, “as different as possible”. On that very sound basis, coming from the other place, would my noble friend take note of the fact that the principle underlying this Bill is one which will have to be examined critically and seriously, because it is fundamental to the good working of this constitution as we have enjoyed it for so many years?

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Howe of Aberavon and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, what the noble Lord says is not without its attractions. I think that his position is illogical, though. Like him, many Members of this House wish to preserve the primacy of another place. That is why the existence of the Parliament Act is very important, and that will continue under the provisions of the draft Bill.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, is it not possible that including such provisions in the Bill would make lucid and clear the increased risk of conflict between the two Houses and the disastrous consequences of the creation of a new structure? Will my noble friend tell the House whether that is the explanation, and is it the consequence of idle carelessness or deliberate deceit?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is neither. There is an expectation that there would be a risk of greater conflict between the two Houses because elected Members of this Chamber would, I believe, use their powers more assertively and, perhaps, more effectively. That is an undeniable conclusion of the process that we are going to undergo.

European Council

Debate between Lord Howe of Aberavon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I cannot give an exact date as to when the proposals were put to the French, but, if I can find out, I will be very happy to write to the noble Baroness. However, the generality of the Prime Minister’s position has been well known for some weeks, and particularly over the course of the days leading up to the summit. Of course, even within an intergovernmental treaty, there are some risks attached. To some extent, we will have to wait to see exactly how that works out. As to the kind of risks, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, spelt out that there are some countries that might feel the need to go along with what the big countries in the intergovernmental treaty want. Again, we shall have to wait to see. Nobody should be under any illusions that the British Government will not continue to fight very strongly for vital British interests, whether it is within an EU treaty or an intergovernmental treaty.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, if I may strike a slightly more optimistic note, is my noble friend aware that our achievement in getting major headway on the Single European Act at the Luxembourg summit followed immediately after the Milan summit, in which our agenda scarcely received any attention at all? That is another rather surprising matter that went ahead without us having much enthusiasm for it. Is my noble friend aware that the future is not as gloomy or as difficult as some people might believe?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I very much welcome the positive note that my noble and learned friend brings to all of us. He is also right about the Single European Act, which was a vital and game-changing initiative. I agree with him that nothing is ever quite as bad as you think it is, and perhaps some things are not quite as good as you think they are either. Nevertheless, the Prime Minister made the right decision on Thursday night and, if he were asked again, he would do the same thing.

Legislation

Debate between Lord Howe of Aberavon and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 10th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, my noble friend should not feel unduly exposed in this because the problem is of great antiquity. Does he know that Tacitus said in silver Rome that whereas formerly we suffered from crimes, today we suffer from laws. Dean Swift began trying to find a solution when he said that in Brobdingnag:

“No laws of that country must exceed in words the number of letters in their alphabet; but few of them extend even to that length. They are expressed in the most plain and simple terms, so that people are not mercurial enough to discover above one interpretation”.

In Brobdingnag, of course, to write a comment upon any law was a capital crime.

Seriously, does the noble Lord recall that under the guidance of Lord Hailsham, for example, and his predecessor, Reginald Manningham-Buller, within the Cabinet structure there was severe constant scrutiny of the very problem with which the House is now concerned? It does need to be taken seriously.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, only in this House could we go from Prime Minister Attlee’s Government to Tacitus, to Swift, and then to today’s Cabinet. My right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal, Sir George Young, and I—and others—yield to no one in our desire to try to make legislation shorter, clearer and better. It is not an easy task—and it is a serious task, as my noble and learned friend pointed out—but I also know that in this House there is a desire to achieve these aims.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Howe of Aberavon and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, my noble friend has dealt with one matter very clearly in his answer to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. The transformation by increasing the electoral component here will certainly not lead to an improvement in the ability of this House to do the functions that it has done so well for many years. He has also conceded without any hesitation that movement in that direction would increase the liability of this House demanding the right to impose its will more strongly than it has in the past. Those two together fundamentally transform the structure.

You could even compare it for a moment with the structure in our criminal courts, where there is no doubt that it is the judge who determines the technicalities, the detail and the framework within which most expert guidance can be given, but it is the jury who have the last word. In those circumstances, the judge as he comes to the end says, “It is entirely a matter for you, members of the jury”. That is precisely the structure that we have in the relations between the two Houses at the moment; we would not dream of challenging the final verdict—after ping-pong—of the other place. That is the essential difference; they have the last word, and they must retain it as a power of that kind, while we make the contributions of the kind that we traditionally make in that context. Any change from that cannot and has not yet been justified by any rational argument.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have heard my noble and learned friend speak on many occasions on plans for reform of this House. He has done so always with integrity and very much in favour of the powers and composition of the House as it is. Even I am deeply impressed to hear him speak today and, in doing so, bring forward an entirely original analogy that he has not used before in describing the relationship between the two Houses. It is an eminently good one—I do not wish to argue about that—which is why I say that with an elected Chamber the relationship between the two Houses would change. It is up to Members of this House but also, most importantly, Members of another place to decide whether they wish to make that change.

Libya

Debate between Lord Howe of Aberavon and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his opening remark that the legality is not in question. He is right in that. We have received the clearest possible advice on the legal basis. The Security Council resolution is extremely clear without any ambiguity and the breaking of that resolution is equally clear. I also agree with my noble friend that the most vital aspect of the work taking place under the auspices of that Security Council resolution is the protection of civilians in Libya. Within that, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord West, the support of the Arab League and the African Union is also extremely important. Diplomatic efforts are being vigorously carried out across the world. Finally, my noble friend asked about the exit strategy. We have made it very clear for a long time that we believe that Colonel Gaddafi has lost the support and confidence of his people. However, in the first place, we wish to see peace and for the people of Benghazi to be able to go about their lives in a peaceful manner. We will review the situation from time to time and will see how events unfold in the days and weeks ahead.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, this episode, if I may call it that, which has given rise to discussion today, is characteristic of the unpredictability of foreign affairs and it indicates the way in which something very alarming has to be addressed urgently. I hope that the House will join me in welcoming the caution, comprehensiveness, clarity and courage with which this problem has been addressed, as well as our satisfaction that there is anything but complacency about it. We shall need to be careful and watchful. However, we can express great confidence in the decisions taken so far and extend our strongest support for the continuation of this approach to the problem.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I very much welcome what my noble and learned friend has said with all his experience and knowledge not just as a former Foreign Secretary but as someone who has witnessed many different international crises and events over a long period. I assure him that there is no complacency and I know that he understands that. I very much welcome his continued support and encouragement. I hope that he will avail himself of any briefing that we can offer so as to keep himself entirely up to speed.