Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Debate between Lord Hope of Craighead and Lord Naseby

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

My Lords, as the speeches that we have been listening to in this debate have made so very clear, this surely is the most difficult part of the Bill and, as we search for a solution, for each of us making up our own minds this group presents a real challenge. The solutions range from an absolute bar—the “clear-cut cornerstones”, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has just described it—on granting authorisations to anyone under 18, in Amendment 12, and anyone under 16, in Amendment 19, to which the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Cormack, spoke so movingly, to the more nuanced and carefully worded procedures proposed in Amendments 23, which would require the prior approval by a judicial commissioner, and Amendments 24 and 26, which have no such requirement.

I entirely recognise the force of the principle that the child’s best interests are paramount, and I appreciate the attraction of a clear and simple absolute bar—a red line—by reference only to a person’s age. That is right when dealing with, for example, the age of criminal responsibility, but I am not so sure that it is right here, where we are being asked to balance the protection of the best interests of the child against the need to protect the public against serious crime, such as that perpetrated by county lines where children are, sadly, so much involved. Recognising that a child’s best interests are paramount does not entirely exclude the possibility of looking at all the circumstances and balancing the interests of the child against other interests, as judges have to do from time to time, but of course it has a crucial bearing on how that exercise is carried out.

Looked at from that point of view, I suggest that one can take account of the fact that children do not all have the same circumstances, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has said. Also, the facts and circumstances may differ widely as to nature of the case and the extent of any risk of physical and psychological harm to the particular child who may be involved—I was interested in the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, based on her own experience of the Scottish Bar. The fact is that we are not in possession of all the information that would guide those taking such decisions. I would therefore prefer to leave the door open for the use of children in strictly and most carefully limited circumstances, taking every possible care in full recognition of all the risks, rather than closing it firmly against their use in any case whatever. Had Amendment 12 been qualified in some way, by reference, for example, to “exceptional circumstances”, I would have found it easier to accept, but, of course, as soon as one adds such words, one has to explain what they mean. That is why I am drawn to Amendment 24, to which the noble Lord, Lord Young, has also put his name. It contains that qualification and then defines what such circumstances are. I pay tribute to the clarity with which it is expressed.

Then there is government Amendment 26. It seems to fall short of what is needed, not only because it lacks that qualification about exceptional circumstances but because it lacks the protection which Amendment 24 would give to vulnerable individuals and victims of modern slavery, whom we must also consider. I look forward to listening carefully to what the Minister has to say in support of her amendment, but, for the moment, my preference is for Amendment 24 and for supporting it if the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, presses it to a vote.

Lastly, I am grateful to the Minister for her letter of today’s date about territorial extent. As she may tell us later on, she informs us in it that the Scottish Government have confirmed that they will recommend to the Scottish Parliament that it should withhold its consent to the Bill. It was for the Scottish Government to take that decision and we must respect it. I am sure that the Minister is right, respecting the Sewel convention, to remove from the Bill the ability to authorise participation in criminal activity for devolved purposes in Scotland. It is not for us to question the decision of the Scottish Parliament and she is right to proceed in that way.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly to Amendments 12, 13 and 14. In relation to the first, I have recently done some research on military national service, introduced by a Labour Government with the support of a Conservative and Liberal Opposition in 1947 and lasting for just over 10 years. This recruited at age 18 young men to serve in the forces and possibly to face death. There was an element in that Act which allowed 17 and a half year-olds to be recruited, so it was not a carte blanche cut-off at 18; it actually started at 17 and a half.

Against that background, it seems to me—it is quite a long time ago now, but I was one of those who did my national service—today’s young people are certainly more experienced than we were at that age. Also, there is this great move afoot to give 16 year-olds the vote. That is a conundrum, is it not? If that were to happen—Scotland is in the lead on that—are those who get the vote at 16 still children or are they adults? For my money, on Amendment 13, there should be a cut-off age of 18, but subject to particular exceptions.

Non-Domestic Rating (Alteration of Lists and Appeals) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord Hope of Craighead and Lord Naseby

Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Earl for giving us an opportunity to clarify the current situation on business rates. My noble friend on the Front Bench will know that I have been asking questions about business rates for a decade now, so I have got a little bit of background in this issue.

I am a marketing man by profession: I looked after the advertising and marketing of a number of retail chains prior to coming to your Lordships’ House and, indeed, prior to entering the other place. Twenty years ago, retailing was conducted entirely on the high street or in retail parks; today, one-third of it—and growing—happens online. In this morning’s Daily Telegraph, it is reported that Ipsos MORI has noted that the crash in footfall since 2007 is well over 20%. That is a huge drop. We have seen a number of chains collapse, including Woolworths and BHS. That is a problem. It is that plunge in footfall and the need to invest in digital technology that is creating a big challenge for small and medium-sized retailers. Moreover, there is a forecast from the British Retail Consortium that 80,000 more shops are likely to close. These are horrendous problems.

I will not repeat any of the points made by the noble Earl in his speech except for one, and that concerns the beta testing stage of the online CCA system early in 2017. We know that there were many shortcomings, but amazingly the whole thing has gone live with nothing having been rectified. I do not think that that is acceptable in today’s world, and I hope that my noble friend can reassure me that something is being done to sort it out.

I am not sure whether I am right in saying this, but my understanding from Answers given by my noble friend to earlier Questions was that the net result of the changes would be revenue neutral. Now we read in the newspapers and professional journals that the system may not be revenue neutral but something closer to £2.5 billion to £3 billion to the benefit of the Treasury. So I would ask my noble friend to put on the record whether it is the Government’s objective that this system should be revenue neutral. If that is the case, can we have an assurance that, if the figures show that all of a sudden the Treasury has picked up £2.5 billion or £3 billion, somehow or other the money will be fed back into the system? That is absolutely vital for the future.

I would just add that the latest figures on empty shops, an issue I have raised on many occasions, are now twice as high as they were before the recession and are running at well over 20%, along with store openings and relettings now down by over 20%.

I would like to add one further point. Why does the UK have the highest property taxes in the whole of the OECD? Property taxes are going up in this country and down elsewhere in the OECD. We are in a situation where they are at 4.1% of GDP; in France, they are at 3.9%, whereas they are at 2.8% in the US and 1.9% across the whole of the OECD. In all of those countries, they have fallen: for us, they are going up.

As an applied practical economist, I know that to make economic sense of Brexit the UK will urgently need to become one of the most business-friendly places in the world. Achieving that requires a low-tax deregulatory agenda, but we seem to be heading in exactly the opposite direction with these SIs that we are debating. Frankly, if that is the way things are going, that will create considerable peril to all our businesses, particularly those in the retail trade, which after all remains the biggest employer in this country. Those businesses are the wealth creators for our future.

Before I forget, I must declare an interest, in that I do have a member of my family in the retail trade.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

I hesitate to contribute to this debate because I have nothing like the expertise of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, or indeed the knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, of how these systems operate in practice.

The burden of what the noble Earl was saying is twofold: first, the appeals system in England and Wales is verging on out of control, given the huge backlog that he mentioned. That in itself is a real challenge for the Government to sort out. The second point I take from his speech is that the way in which the Government have tried to address this problem is resulting in unfairness to ratepayers and their advisers, in trying to challenge the valuations that the valuation officer has asked to be entered in the roll. In that respect, he raises what I would respectfully suggest is a very serious issue, which I hope the Minister will feel able to comment on.

I have picked up two points, one in each of the regulations, where I am inclined to think that the regulations as drafted point in the right direction. The first is in SI 155. In Regulation 16, which introduces new regulation 13A, the grounds on which a proposer may appeal to the Valuation Tribunal for England are said to be,

“(a) the valuation for the hereditament is not reasonable;

(b) the list is inaccurate in relation to the hereditament (other than in relation to the valuation).”

I may be wrong, but I took from the noble Earl’s speech that he is criticising the use of the language in that provision and suggesting that it is inconsistent with the primary legislation, which, in Section 42, describes what the local rating list is to provide. Section 41(4) says that before a list is compiled, the valuation officer must take such steps as are reasonably practicable to ensure that it is accurately compiled on 1 April.

There are two issues here. The first is the accuracy of the entry in the list, which describes the hereditament itself. I think “accuracy” is a perfectly correct adjective to use. Whichever side he is on, the valuer must know precisely what the hereditament is that is to be valued. The other side is the valuation side, and it is in relation to that aspect that the adjective “reasonable” is used. It seems to me that that is a proper use of language too. To require that the valuation should be accurate may be asking too much, because a valuation is, after all, an expression of the valuer’s opinion, expertly using his art as best as he can to arrive at a valuation that meets the statutory standard. So, with great respect to the noble Earl, I think that the language in SI 155 is correct and I do not see any grounds for criticism.