Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Hope of Craighead Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2013 Lords Chamber

I wonder about these time limits which, to me, seem potentially too restrictive. To make them even more restrictive, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, suggests, would be detrimental to the objectives that the Minister is no doubt seeking for these powers.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I share the puzzlement of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, about the provision in Clause 56, particularly as all the flexibility needed is covered in Clause 57. There is a power to discharge, which would no doubt be exercised when the local community is satisfied that the order is no longer needed, and there is a valuable power to vary the order so that it could be extended to more people or its scope reduced if that is shown to be necessary. Flexibility is key and I would have thought that one could get by perfectly well with Clause 57 without having Clause 56 there at all.

[Lord Faulks (Con)]

My Lords, I respectfully agree with what the noble and learned Lord has just said. The only way in which Clause 56 might be amended to satisfy the anxiety is to make it a relatively simple procedure. At the moment, subsection (5) requires that the local authority must consult various people. If the local authority was given an opportunity so that it “may” consult rather than “must” consult, it would make the extension a relatively informal procedure. Otherwise, I entirely accept what the noble and learned Lord says: Clause 56 is over elaborate in view of the existence of Clause 57.

--- Later in debate ---

When I raised this issue in respect of dispersal orders, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, was unable to answer. I want to try again because I feel very strongly about this. I am sure that we will also return to it for dispersal orders. Any new order that is introduced has to be evidence-based. I am sure—or I hope—that the noble Lord would agree with that. Can he explain where the demand is coming from which says that the public spaces protection order is the appropriate way to proceed instead of the three existing orders, and that that is the only option available for improving or changing those orders? This is another example of where the Government, in trying to streamline or rationalise orders, have let things drop and not identified all the problems and all the issues, such that we could well find ourselves in a weaker position in dealing with these issues. I hope the noble Lord can reassure me that that is not the case. On the present evidence, however, I am worried that effectiveness will be lost by trying to squeeze three orders into one solution.

[Lord Hope of Craighead]

My Lords, I will just add a supplement to my addendum to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, on the flexibility that lies within the clauses as they stand. Clause 55(8)(c) creates a power to specify the period; so, with great respect to the noble Baroness, it is not a fixture that it will always be three years. If one takes that flexibility along with the point that I made earlier about Clause 57, a lot of flexibility is built into this. It is a very sensitive and well designed measure, subject to the point about whether Clause 56 should be there at all.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

As a point of clarification, I am fully aware that it is not three years in every case—it is up to three years. However, one of my concerns is that, because of the cost of renewal and the uncertainties around that, a number of local authorities may think that three years has become the default. It will be easier for them to run to the maximum of three years rather than face the bureaucracy and costs of renewal by doing otherwise.