Ukraine: War Crimes Allegations

Debate between Lord Hogan-Howe and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 4th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, if Karim Khan is following our debates in Hansard, as he often does, I am sure that he will have seen the noble Lord being consistent in asking the prosecutor to come to the UK. As I have said before, he has a lot on his plate, understandably, but we are working closely with him. On the next opportunity we will—and I will personally, when I next see him—extend that invitation for him to come here to hear what noble Lords, indeed all parliamentarians, have to say on this issue. We are working very closely. The appointment of Sir Howard underlines the importance of close co-ordination. The noble Lord will know that Sir Howard himself was a very distinguished judge at the ICC.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the publication today of the pictures and name of the colonel named within the latest atrocities is a good development that might start to impact on the behaviour of the troops on the ground now rather than when it is too late? I agree entirely with the Government’s strategy, which is to support the international approach, get investigations started and collect evidence but, importantly, to get investigators on the ground as soon as possible. The images that are coming back clearly show evidence, literally on the ground—both in terms of people, sadly, and in physical terms—which will be lost. The sooner the investigators can safely get in there, the less will be lost and, frankly, the more people will be held to account. Our evidence from Yugoslavia is that the system works; it usually goes right to the top—exactly as it should—but the people on the ground need to be held to account for the murders, rapes and the other atrocities that we are seeing.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord; he of course speaks with great insight and knowledge on various issues, particularly on investigations of crimes on the ground. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, talked about military and technical support as well as other police support, and I assure the noble Lord that this is the kind of technical support that we are giving to the Ukrainians. I am sure that noble Lords will have seen that President Zelensky himself was visiting Bucha this morning, and with him were experts who are gathering evidence as we speak. We are working absolutely hand in glove with them to provide whatever support they require at this important time.

Sanctions

Debate between Lord Hogan-Howe and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I cannot answer specifically on that vessel. It depends on what time it came in, because the measures announced by my right honourable friend the Transport Secretary came into force at 1500 hours. It really depends on where the vessel was when those sanctions came into force.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I am no lawyer, but it seems that this is an illegal war. We have used sanctions, properly, to try to influence a Government and a country to stop invading another country and to stop military people carrying out their tasks. We have now moved to a time to try to influence the people on the ground. That means the actions of either military or intelligence leaders. I follow the point from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that investment in our ability to investigate crime would be wise, but also in international prosecutors and the investigation they are about to embark on. The time is now to collect digital evidence on the ground to influence soldiers there, to stop them carrying out barbaric acts if we can and either publish their faces or identify them now, because an investigation after the event will be too late to prevent the damage they might cause today. It is clear that we will see conflict between military people and civilians over the coming days. This is the time to try to influence that behaviour. The digital world is just one way to achieve it.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very practical and helpful suggestion. We are collecting evidence to support whichever jurisdiction might follow through on the crimes being committed on the ground, including those that will be investigated by the ICC. We will be in full support of that with whatever evidence we have; we will submit our own intelligence that we gather on the ground. Equally, as he may well be aware, we are a strong supporter of the ICC. We will work co-operatively with whatever evidence we can provide to it.