Economy: Budget Statement

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Tuesday 13th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, research in the Library reveals the extraordinary fact that I have now spoken 59 times in Budget debates. This will be my 60th. Looking back on that period, there have been many memorable Budgets—by the late Lord Howe of Aberavon, by my noble friends Lord Lawson and Lord Lamont, and so on. This, I think, will not be a particularly memorable Budget, but it is certainly unique in one respect: there has never been so much uncertainty about the overall economic situation as we have today. The Chancellor faces an immensely difficult task and I think that, on the whole, the Budget is the best that can be done at this stage, until we have a little more certainty about the outcome of Brexit.

I will mention two points of detail. The first is that I certainly welcome the measure the Chancellor has taken to help the high street. I think that it is very important and I am glad that he has taken the opportunity to do it: it may be necessary to do more. There is also rumour in the press that there will be an increase in the charge for probate—but that will not be included in the Budget. Perhaps my noble friend will say how that is to be introduced. I think that all of us know from personal experience that after a death the whole issue of probate and so on is very difficult, and to use this as a form of taxation, rather than simply covering the Government’s costs, seems wrong.

Looking at the Budget overall, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has pointed out that this is the largest discretionary fiscal loosening that we have seen since 2010. That is remarkable, but it raises the whole question of the end of austerity. I am very strongly of the view that we have had no option in recent years but to adopt the policy of austerity that we have because quite clearly we have not been living within our means, and we have to try to get back to that situation. It is therefore perhaps a little surprising that, instead of continuing, given that he had a certain amount of windfall in that progress, the Chancellor decided to spend the windfall instead on the National Health Service, help with various tax changes, and so on. The overall position is that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have indicated that this is the end of austerity—but that does not mean that we must not continue to try to live within our means. This really must be reinforced in looking forward, particularly against the very difficult economic situation created by Brexit, which I have just mentioned.

It is not entirely clear what proposals the Chancellor has, depending on the different ways in which the Brexit problem develops. A lot of problems will be ones that cannot be helped at all by either fiscal or monetary policy. If there is no deal, for example, we are likely to find enormous problems with blockages in the Channel ports and so on. There is nothing the Chancellor can do about that. What he will need to do is make efforts to stimulate the economy if we find that the outcome of the Brexit operation creates problems, as it seems likely to do. I am slightly puzzled by his expression “Brexit dividend”. He seems to be saying that if Brexit works all right, we will not have to take the nasty measures we were otherwise going to take. That is a slightly strange interpretation of what is meant by a dividend.

At all events, we may find ourselves in a number of possible circumstances, ranging from no deal to a deal which is not too bad—although there is some debate on whether that will be Chequers—or one where we decide that we really ought not to leave at all. The reality is that the House of Commons and the House of Lords have had no opportunity to vote on the result of a referendum which was, as I have stressed many times, advisory. We did not legislate in this House or the other place for a mandatory referendum. We should therefore consider—we really have a duty to consider—whether the interests of our people and the economy depend on going ahead with Brexit in one form or another, with no deal or with whatever it may be. The people had a vote when they voted for their Members of Parliament—but their Members of Parliament, instead of being delegates, have been made representatives by the way in which the operation of the system has inhibited them from doing what needs to be done.

I am not at all clear what one might do by way of stimulus or as a more stringent approach in the light of the various Brexit changes. However, we have to consider very carefully which of the possible ways in which the situation may unfold needs to be dealt with. Having said that, this Budget seems to be as good as can be done in the circumstances. I thought that my noble friend on the Front Bench set out the Government’s position clearly—perhaps more clearly than the Chancellor, although he did not include any jokes. Be that as it may, this Budget is the best that can be done in the circumstances and we should support the Government.

Royal Bank of Scotland

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

These are matters which we take independent advice on; that is why UK Government Investments is there. It tracks what is happening in the market on a daily basis. I have already mentioned some of the things which are happening. Earlier this month there was a large settlement with the Department of Justice, of £3.6 billion; UKGI also recognised that in April, the bank turned in its first profit in 10 years. Those factors were weighed together, along with the fact that there are very few windows during the course of the year when we can dispose of assets, because of potential conflicts of interest.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that this sale does not result in a loss but crystallises it? He just referred to advice he has received; would he say what advice he received about the future likely movement in the share price? He also refers to this being value for money for the taxpayer; could he explain in what way?

[Lord Bates]

This is the fourth time we have undertaken this approach. We did it twice with Lloyds, and this is the second time with RBS. The last time this was done in 2015, the National Audit Office concluded that that sale of shares in RBS,

“was executed as skilfully as could reasonably be expected, and on the basis of the preparation, process and proceeds of the transaction, UKFI”—

now UKGI—

“achieved value for money”.

That was what it looked at, and it will have to justify that advice; others will look at this as well, and we will keep it under review.

Economy: Spring Statement

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, I have long since forgotten how many Budget debates I have spoken in, but I have certainly spoken in every one since 1964, which is quite a long while. I have therefore got used to the annual Budget ritual, with the box outside No. 10, and so on. While I fully understand and accept the reasons which the Chancellor has put forward for changing our annual Budget arrangements, none the less I feel a little sentimental about the proposed changes.

We cannot go on calling it a “single fiscal event”; we should go on calling it a Budget in the autumn. I gather, from reading rather more closely what the Chancellor said, that it will continue to be known as a Budget. I also regret the fact that he will no longer publish the Red Book, which I always found a singularly convenient form of presentation, and I hope that he will reconsider that by the time we come to the autumn.

The Chancellor’s speech the other day sets out the record since 2010, which is good: the manufacturing sector is,

“enjoying its longest unbroken run of growth for 50 years”,

with 3 million extra jobs; every single region has,

“higher employment and lower unemployment than in 2010”;

and the wages of the lowest-paid workers are,

“up by almost 7% above inflation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/3/18; col. 717.]

All that is good, and the Chancellor is right to have stressed it. Similarly, the OBR forecasts predict more jobs, rising real wages, declining inflation and a falling deficit—and, the Chancellor says, a shrinking debt. It is not actually true that there will be a shrinking debt. My understanding is that clearly the national debt will continue to go up; that must be a slip by the draftsman who produced the Chancellor’s speech. It is essential to stress that we must continue to cut the deficit, for all the reasons that are well known—the effect on future generations, the strength of the economy, the fact that we have to pay large amounts of interest on the debt, and so on. I hope that we can take that point into account.

The OBR forecast in general is optimistic, although we shall have a number of particular problems. We hear talk of austerity all the time, but what that really means is that we are living within our means, and having to take the necessary measures to stay within our means—unlike Mr Gordon Brown, who managed to make everyone happy for a number of years simply by running up debts at a higher and higher level. We certainly do not want to see Mr Corbyn doing the same thing again.

[Lord Skidelsky (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but does he not remember that the debt-to-GDP ratio came down for all the years of Brown’s chancellorship until 2008?

[Lord Higgins]

Conveniently or not, I happen to have forgotten that. At all events, let me consider what the noble Lord has just said.

I am glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, who had disappeared for a moment, is now back in his place, because what I really wanted to say is that although I did not agree with every single word he said, I very much agree with what he said in general. The Chancellor missed an opportunity to spell out how much more difficult his task had been made by implementing the results of the referendum.

In my view the referendum has produced a disastrous situation. Someone said at the time that people did not vote for a lower standard of living—but that is precisely what they voted for, and it is precisely what they are going to get. That is very deplorable indeed. I agree with the noble Lord who said that it would be helpful if the Chancellor had spelled out the fact that, because of the effect of that vote, we are facing even bigger problems than we otherwise would have done.

It is important that we should not go for a very hard Brexit. We had a debate yesterday about what was going to happen, and we had to reappraise the position. We were saying that we needed a meaningful vote on the result of the negotiations, and there was a long debate about that. Unfortunately, we did not have an opportunity to vote on the place we should start from. The trouble is that the Government started by saying that we are going to withdraw from the customs union and the single market. That will be dangerous and damaging. Parliament really must take a strong position and say that we cannot go along with the implications of Brexit if it means that the living standards of our people will be lower. I think that we have a duty to say that we will not go along with this.

Therefore, as it stands, it is a good Budget but it is a far less good Budget than it would have been if we had not been dealing with the initial implications of Brexit. The situation will certainly be better if we do not continue along that route but instead take a revised view on where the Government should stand on the single market and the customs union.

I add only one point, which was made yesterday, about the Irish border. If we do not leave the customs union, we do not have a problem, and if we do leave the customs union, we do not have a solution. That is the reality. However, overall I welcome the proposed changes to our financial proceedings and debates, and I believe that this is as good a Budget as one can produce in circumstances which are much worse than they would have been if we had not had the result that we did in the referendum.

Syria

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, on the latter point, I shall have to write to the noble Lord; I cannot give him an answer right now. On his point around the Russians needing to do more, it is absolutely right that they need to do more to meet their obligations under international law. As a member of the UN Security Council and the International Syria Support Group, Russia needs to step up and put pressure on Assad. What I hope will happen when my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary goes to Munich on Thursday is that those are the conversations that will take place.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that negotiations are not likely to be successful and may not take place so long as Assad—clearly, in the present circumstances, backed by the Russians—believes that he might achieve a military solution? In that context, are we really sensible to use our resources and air power in bombing ISIL in Syria as well as in Iraq? Should not we redeploy those forces to attack ISIL in Iraq and, once that task is done, turn to ISIL in Syria? At the moment, in Syria we are helping Assad to take the pressure off as far as ISIL is concerned. We really ought to shift the balance more towards our intervention from an air power point of view into Iraq, until such time as that is solved, when we can go on to Syria.

[Baroness Verma]

My noble friend highlights the complexity and difficulty of what we are having to deal with, and what the international community has to deal with. It is really important to understand that our goal has to be to defeat Daesh so that it no longer presents a threat to UK or international stability, which means focusing on Daesh’s core in Syria and Iraq and working with our allies to support those countries where Daesh is becoming a threat to help them prevent its spread.

Distribution of Dormant Account Money (Apportionment) Order 2011

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma]

That the draft orders and regulations laid before the House on 9 and 12 May be approved.

Relevant document: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 5 July.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, might I raise a point that is perhaps of general interest? When a matter is debated in the Moses Room and the Minister is unable to give a full reply and promises to write and place a copy of the answer in the Library, should that not be done before the matter returns to the Floor of the House? Perhaps my noble friend the Leader of the House might consider that point, otherwise when the order comes back to the Floor, we will not know what view we ought to take on it.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, perhaps I may take the opportunity of answering. I would always regard that to be the normal course of practice, and if it did not happen, I would very much like it to be brought to my attention.

Distribution of Dormant Account Money (Apportionment) Order 2011

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, this apportionment order marks the culmination of a long process to do something useful with dormant account money. The Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008 created the legislative framework required to use this money for the good of society while protecting the rights of account holders. In line with the original Act and in consultation with the Big Lottery Fund, which is the designated distributor of dormant accounts money, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all determining their own spending priorities for it. As the Prime Minister announced in July of last year, England’s portion will be used to set up a big society bank.

Current estimates suggest that there is about £400 million of eligible dormant accounts in the UK. Some of this will be kept back to meet claims from customers, as is right and proper. However, the Reclaim Fund estimates that between £60 million to and £100 million will be released for public spending over the course of the first year. Subsequent releases will be made according to the rate of reclaim.

This order sets out how the money available for public spending will be apportioned between England and the devolved Administrations. In accordance with communications at the time of the original Act in 2008, the order divides the money on a per capita basis; in other words, in line with the Barnett formula. Based on the latest population estimates by the Office for National Statistics, the percentages are as follows: England, 83.9 per cent; Scotland, 8.4 per cent; Wales, 4.9 per cent; and Northern Ireland 2.8 per cent. While the application of the Barnett formula to the apportionment of dormant account money is in line with previous expectations, the decision to use the formula was made only after a period of consultations with the devolved Administrations, as required by the Act.

Following the passage of the transfer of functions order on 31 January, the Minister for the Cabinet Office had responsibility for leading this process. Prior to the formal consultations, Cabinet Office officials informed officials in the devolved Administrations and territorial offices of the Government’s intention to use the Barnett formula, thereby preparing the way for the ministerial process.

The formal consultation process was conducted through an exchange of letters between the Minister for the Cabinet Office and his ministerial counterparts in the devolved Administrations during March and April. A number of concerns were raised about the use of the Barnett formula, principally revolving around the established criticisms that the formula is outdated and does not take into account the varying needs across the constituent countries of the UK. I can assure noble Lords that we have considered these concerns very carefully. However, based on advice from the Treasury and in line with normal devolved spending, we maintain that the formula remains the most transparent, robust and sustainable method of apportionment. This judgment was communicated to the devolved Administrations in letters from the Minister for the Cabinet Office on 6 April, thereby formally ending the consultation process.

While keeping within the constraints of the parliamentary timetable, we have been keen to ensure that the apportionment order is passed as soon as possible so that the dormant account money can be put to good use as soon as the first tranche becomes available later in the summer. While England’s portion will be used to establish a big society bank, which will help build a social investment market and broaden the finance options open to civil society organisations, with the passing of this order, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will be able to use their portions to fund their own social and environmental programmes. I therefore commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, I have a long-standing interest in the question of dormant bank accounts. Indeed, at one stage I was an arbitrator on the claims resolution tribunal for dormant accounts in Switzerland.

I have only one or two points to make on the order, the first of which concerns the question of distribution. As the Minister said, there were considerable discussions on this issue. She said that in the course of the discussions the devolved Administrations argued that the allocation of the money should be changed and that it should be distributed in relation to the various needs of the devolved areas, whereas the very good and helpful brief states that it does not take into account need. It is not the same thing. “Need” implies that certain groups of people have a need for money as against the overall allocation—which, presumably, will happen in the course of normal government decisions.

In all events, could the Minister say what evidence the devolved Administrations produced to argue that it ought to be done on the basis of need? Whatever one thinks about the Barnett formula—and many views have been expressed about it, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett—I have come to the conclusion of the Treasury that this is probably right way of doing it.

The second point, which is interesting, is that this money is normally going to go, as I understand it, to the Big Lottery Fund. The money going to the devolved Administrations—I presume, the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—will be allocated by the fund. However there is also an intriguing passage in the Explanatory Memorandum, which states:

“With the Prime Minister’s announcement on 19 July 2010, England’s portion is committed to setting up a Big Society Bank, which will be a social investment wholesaler”.

I am not at all clear what a “social investment wholesaler” is—perhaps the Minister could clarify that. But in all events it looks as though England will have its chunk allocated to the big society bank, whereas the other devolved Administrations will not.

I understand and support the idea of a big society bank, and the idea of the big society, which the Prime Minister is understandably so enthusiastic about. But if that is so, why has an apparently arbitrary decision been taken, which I do not think is reflected at all in any of the legislation, that England’s portion shall go to the big society bank, rather than any of the other uses which the lottery fund might have used it for?

Although we have a Big Lottery Fund which is responsible for making this kind of decision, it is apparently to be overruled in this case by the Prime Minister’s statement. I am not the least bit clear what the financial and legislative basis is for his decision to overrule that, and why—instead of the normal process of going through the Big Lottery Fund—we suddenly find it is to be done by a big society bank. No doubt that has not been set up yet. I presume there will be some delay, whereas if it went straight to the Big Lottery Fund, the money would be allocated immediately, or at least much sooner than it would under the arrangements set out in the Explanatory Memorandum. I would be most grateful if the Minister could clarify those particular points.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Verma]

I thank my noble friends and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for their broad warm welcome for the order. I expected the order to raise questions, on some of which, I am afraid, I shall have to write to noble Lords.

My noble friends Lord Higgins and Lord Oakeshott raised concerns around the use of the Barnett formula and asked why not other formulas. It was found that the Barnett formula was the most robust way of allocating the money. The Big Lottery Fund’s way of distribution is not a government formula and therefore does not have a wider standing beyond the distribution of lottery funds. The Government recognise that concerns have been expressed about the system of devolved funding; however, their position remains that the priority is to reduce the budget deficit and that any decision to change the current system must await the stabilisation of public finances. However, we have to find an alternative and, until we do, noble Lords will have to accept that the Barnett formula has its strengths.

My noble friend Lord Higgins asked about the term “social investment wholesaler”. The big society bank will be a social investment wholesaler. It is a term used in dormant accounts legislation and is one of three areas where English dormant accounts can be spent. The other two are youth provision and financial inclusion and capability.

My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones asked about public consultation on the distribution of dormant accounts. The Government carried out a public consultation on how the English portion of the dormant accounts should be spent prior to the 2008 Act. As a result, the dormant accounts Act allows the English portion to be used for youth provision, financial inclusion and capability or a social investment wholesaler.

I was asked about the monies going into the big society bank and whether this would be a one-off. We have £60 million to £100 million that we are going to allocate. However, there is a reclaim fund and we need to see how much of that is drawn on. Of course, if money is then still left, it is only right and fair that it is put to positive and good use through the big society bank so that people and smaller organisations can draw on it. The decision will, of course, be made after the independent reclaim fund has looked at how the progress of reclaim has worked.

The questions that were asked today centred basically around confidence in ensuring that the monies reach the right people and that we are making the best use of the dormant accounts. I think there is agreement over the framework that we are using, which was passed in 2008. Since taking office, the Government have worked hard, taking the necessary steps to make sure that money from dormant accounts made available for public spending is put to good use as soon as possible. A reclaim fund has been established by Co-operative Financial Services and authorised by the FSA. As I have indicated from the outset, the estimated £60 million to £100 million from dormant accounts will be released by the fund over the first year. It is imperative that we are able to spend this money as soon as possible.

In taking the decision, the Government have considered thoroughly some of the concerns that noble Lords have raised today. I stress to the Committee that we understand that there are criticisms of the formula we are using. However, it has proved to be currently the most transparent and easily understood formula of all those that are around. I hope noble Lords will be satisfied. I know I have not been able to respond to all questions but I undertake to ensure that all noble Lords are written to. On that basis, I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, I should like to seek a little further clarification. I stress that I am, despite all its imperfections, in favour of the use of the Barnett formula for the allocation of funds between different parts of the United Kingdom. However, that does not solve the problem of which formula is being used to distribute the money, as against distributing it between the regions. I am anxious to save my noble friend unnecessary correspondence. Why, instead of the normal procedure being used—whereby the money for each of the regions goes into the Big Lottery Fund—is the money suddenly being siphoned off into the big society bank? Apparently this is not happening in the regions, although one would have thought that the big society was a UK-wide concept. Why do we suddenly find the allocation of resources—apparently contrary to the Act, although I might be wrong about that—being left to the big society bank, rather than to the existing arrangements set out in legislation? Alternatively, why is it not all going to the big society bank? How do the criteria for these two bodies differ?

[Baroness Verma]

My noble friend of course wants far more detailed clarification than I am about to give him. I undertake to ensure that such clarification is passed to all Members. However, the devolved Assemblies and authorities can make orders to restrict the kind of purposes and people to which money from dormant accounts may be distributed. That comes under Sections 19 to 21 of the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008; some safeguards are already in place. However, I completely understand my noble friend’s concern. Therefore, to ensure further clarity, I would rather undertake to write and give a much fuller explanation that will, I hope, satisfy him.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, I am afraid that an exchange of correspondence does not clarify something in the same way as having it dealt with on the Floor of the House. Can I be clear? What is the financial basis of the Prime Minister’s statement, allocating this money to the other fund, rather than to the Big Lottery Fund?

[Baroness Verma]

As I said earlier to noble Lords, the Prime Minister has made it clear that for him the priority in England is to be able to set up the big society bank to ensure that dormant accounts are used for the needs of organisations in England. My noble friend is now querying the needs of the devolved Assemblies. However, I would give justice to my noble friend only if I could write to him and to other noble Lords because I would not want to have something misread or misheard in giving clarification. I may be able to do so now but, then again, I may not.

Under the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008, following the transfer of functions order the Minister for the Cabinet Office must give directions to the Big Lottery Fund on how the English portion should be spent. I am not quite sure that that will satisfy my noble friend and therefore I continue to say that I shall write to noble Lords.

[Lord Higgins]

I am most grateful to my noble friend. I look forward to her letter to see whether the Minister can, in fact, make such an order.

Motion agreed.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Friday 3rd December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, not least because I think I agree with every single word he said. I am therefore able to restrict my own remarks to a rather shorter length. In particular, I am happy to agree with him on how fortunate it is that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has joined us. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, mentioned several of his previous roles. He may suddenly find himself in the role of politician. None the less, it is fortunate that we have his advice and wisdom at this stage. We are debating a considerable number of constitutional matters at present. It would not be a great exaggeration to say that we are in considerable danger as far as constitutional matters are concerned.

I will make only one or two brief points on the overall question of reform of your Lordships’ House. I was very surprised when a colleague of mine on these Benches, in a discussion that we had on this issue a little while ago, said, “It’s really very difficult to explain to people because, as Mr Clegg says, changing to an elected system would make it more democratic”. I replied, “I think that is profoundly wrong”. What is proposed by way of election to this House will in no way increase democracy, which already exists, 100 per cent, in the House of Commons. What it will do is divide the operation of democracy and make it less effective. I see no reason at all why one should go along with the views expressed by Mr Clegg and reinforced repeatedly by the noble Lord, Lord McNally.

I am also particularly concerned about the way in which the arrangements for the coalition give a preponderance of emphasis to views supported by Mr Clegg and my noble friend Lord McNally. One has only to look at the events of the past week to realise what this danger is—that we may, as a result of trying to hold the coalition together, go down extremely dangerous paths. Earlier this week, the coalition Government put forward a proposal not simply for a referendum—during my 33 years in the House of Commons I always found such proposals very dangerous—but a mandatory referendum. The other night, your Lordships agreed to a mandatory referendum. This strikes at the heart of one’s feelings about the issue. Edmund Burke must be rotating in his grave at a very rapid rate. We have a representative system of democracy and Members of the House of Commons are representatives, not delegates. We cannot have mandatory referendums as the dangers of doing so are very great. To start with, pressure would soon be applied to hold a mandatory referendum on capital punishment. I have no great doubts that such a referendum would result in a far bigger majority than is likely in a referendum on the alternative vote. The coalition agreement has set a major constitutional precedent, which is dangerous, and the same is true as far as your Lordships’ House is concerned.

I am very glad that my noble friend has reintroduced his Bill and I hope very much that attitudes towards it will change. The composition of your Lordships' House is dynamic and changing, particularly with regard to the number of noble Lords. As several speakers have pointed out, the large number of Peers is creating serious problems. Indeed, I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said that we were in danger of being held up to ridicule. I do not know whether this is a conspiracy but it is certainly the effect of having an increased number of Peers. My noble friend’s Bill is even more timely than it would have been previously as it helps in two respects. First, it suggests that there should be a statutory commission rather than the existing arrangement, which has presided over the enormous number of new Members. Perhaps the quickest way to solve this dilemma is to abolish the present commission and delay the introduction of a new one. My own view is that we should have a moratorium on the introduction of new Peers until such time as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, who has produced an excellent preliminary report, has reconciled these matters.

There is a serious lack of data on how many Members might take advantage of the proposal in my noble friend’s Bill to retire from the House. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has already concluded that we need primary legislation and, as my noble friend has just pointed out, this matter constitutes an excellent example of where that is needed. There is no need to wreck the Government’s programme; we can simply go along with my noble friend’s arrangement. The Bill also provides for a statutory appointments commission, which could take into account the constitutional position. It is very strange that we have never had a limit on the size of your Lordships' House, and it is high time that we did. The statutory appointments commission could take that matter into account and enable noble Lords who wish to leave to do so. If the arrangements made in that regard were cost neutral, it would not be unreasonable for compensation to be paid to those who leave the House. I think that would be a saleable product. It may not be very easy to gain acceptance for it, given the attitude of the press generally, but it could mean that we get a significant increase in Members retiring. However, we do not know to what extent that may happen. We look forward to the report of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which I gather is making rapid progress. In the mean time, for the reasons that I and other noble Lords have given, we should proceed urgently with my noble friend’s Bill and get it on the statute book as soon as possible.