Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Warner

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this group of amendments, but I want to make a couple of points and leave a question with the Minister. I have always been in the camp that feels that Clause 4 was misguided and should be abandoned. I can see the case, which was put very well by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, for retaining Clause 4 with these more controlled features. Listening to this debate, I have a number of concerns.

There is genuine concern that there might be a really rogue clinical commissioning group, but listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has revived my concern that somewhere along the line, if we are not very careful and are too controlling, we will stop the initiatives that we want from commissioners as the NHS faces considerable challenges. As the House knows, I do not have the same fear that other Members of your Lordships' House have about third-sector or independent-sector providers, so I would not want anything in the peace that we see breaking out here to inhibit creative clinical commissioning groups setting off on new paths for new types of services simply because major people in the NHS have not woken up to the need for significant change. I hope that the Minister can reassure me that, in accepting this more nuanced version of Clause 4 on autonomy, we are not really inhibiting the creativity of clinical commissioning groups to bring in new players, even if it may seem a rather radical idea when they start to do it.

Finally, as the Minister knows, I have a mild obsession with the whole issue of a pre-failure provision in this legislation, which we will come to later. One of my continuing concerns is that we do not want to end up with a situation where we are restricting the ability of the National Commissioning Board to begin to intervene—to tackle failure at the local level—simply because autonomy requires people to flounder along as long as they like on the grounds that it is all about localism. I hope the nuanced version of Clause 4 that we are getting is still accepted as something that would enable the National Commissioning Board to intervene when there was a total failure by providers and commissioners at the local level to tackle the problems of clinical and financial unsustainability.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, every time I look at Clause 4—[Laughter.] I cannot understand what my noble friends find so amusing, but every time I look at this particular clause—if that makes it easier for them—and particularly listening to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, I have been confused as to what problem the Government think they are solving by the clauses on autonomy.

There is apparently a concern about micromanagement. There is a desire to have local innovation, flexibility and local responsiveness. What is it about the current arrangements in the NHS that necessarily prevents local innovation, flexibility and local responsiveness? Why are we having these discussions? If there is a concern from the Government that they are micromanaging, they have a solution—they stop micromanaging. Again, what are we trying to do here?

However, once you include,

“the desirability of securing, so far as consistent with the interests of the health service”—

or whatever form of words you choose to have—this principle of autonomy, you are setting up an automatic conflict. If the form of words that the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, have put their names to was in the Bill, does this mean that the Secretary of State will be intervening when there are clear cases of postcode lottery? That presumably is the implication. Or is the Secretary of State now going to say that in fact a postcode lottery is what this legislation is designed to create? We should be clear about what these clauses are trying to prevent. What is the problem that they are trying to solve?

The noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, was moving in his description of how the Secretary of State would weigh these difficult issues of the possible conflict between,

“the desirability of securing, so far as consistent with the interests of the health service”,

autonomy and the priorities of the fundamental role of the NHS. This is a balance that has to be weighed. He talked about this line of accountability that will exist between the NHS Commissioning Board and the CCGs—these tentacles that the NHS Commissioning Board will put throughout the NHS. They will be unaccountable and anonymous, and individuals will be operating at regional or at local level.

There will be an army of people operating as the tentacles of the NHS Commissioning Board. They will be informing the Secretary of State so that he can exercise his judgments about the balance between autonomy and meeting the principles of the NHS. I wonder whether the Secretary of State is creating the most extraordinary bureaucratic monster to solve a problem that could be easily solved simply by resisting his tendency to micromanage.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Warner

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

No, the reason being that it may not be an emergency situation; it may be that an individual is being passed from one agency to another. The point at issue is a risk and the mitigation of that risk. The risk may be that an assessment has been done suggesting that a person is at risk of suicide. They may well not commit suicide; there may well not be an emergency; or there may well be things that the receiving agency can do which will reduce that risk. However, there is no emergency so there would not be circumstances in which you could say it is in response to a particular situation; it is to avoid a situation arising. I am sure that there could be a form of words which would both deal with the concerns the noble Lord has highlighted and permit the sensible passing on of information to safeguard the right to life of that individual. I do not think Amendment 153ZZA quite deals with that point, and the Minister may want to respond to that when we get to that stage.

The final amendment I wish to speak to, very briefly, is Amendment 299C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. I, too, think it is extremely important that NHS services explicitly in the Bill must not use NHS business to recruit private patient business. In a context where again we will see the fragmentation of services, the arrival of all sorts of new providers and the possible blurring of distinctions between NHS provision and that provided privately by NHS practitioners, this needs to be made explicit. It is already an issue. I will cite my personal experience. The last but one time I visited my general practitioner—I think it was the first time for some five years—he declined to make the referral for secondary care I wished to have, saying that I probably had not looked after myself as well as I should have done, but then he pushed across the table a card advertising his Chinese medicine service. I thought that was extremely inappropriate—disregarding whether it was an appropriate treatment; as far as I am concerned it is non-evidence-based medicine.

Under any circumstances for there to be a blurring of the NHS responsibility of a practitioner and their private concerns seems extremely dubious. It is important it is made explicit that this is not permitted. In a previous series of exchanges the noble Earl has said it is quite clear what should happen under those circumstances. However, it does happen and what is permitted becomes increasingly confused. Even if medical practitioners are not abusing their position, or there is no blurring of those lines and everyone has been quite proper, it is perfectly feasible that patients will be confused and will not be clear as to what is happening, and that will colour future relationships they have with people providing medical services to them. It certainly coloured my relationship with that GP because on the last occasion I saw him I was extremely dubious about receiving any advice from him. I confess I referred to him as being patronising. This was perhaps inappropriate; it was certainly unwise as he was about to perform a rectal examination. None the less, it certainly coloured the relationship we had. In the interests of both patients and medical practitioners the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, should be in the Bill.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I do not intend to follow that in a similar style. I support Amendment 144 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to which I have added my name. I do not want to go over the ground covered by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, but I just wish to share with the Minister in particular and the House in general my own experience from introducing near-miss reporting in the NHS when the National Patient Safety Agency was established. In those good old days the figure was around 800,000 a year. The current figure, as my noble friend Lord Patel said, is of the order of 3,000 a day; it is on an upward incline.

The issue at stake in those days was not the principle of trying in effect to copy the airline industry and improve safety by having people come clean about near misses—some very serious, some less serious. No one disputed the merits of trying to learn from those experiences. Where everybody got a little concerned was around the making public of the information. I will not delight the House with some of the discussions that took place in Richmond House about whether the first lot of information should be made available, because who knew what the Daily Mail would do with it? Noble Lords will be pleased to know that the Daily Mail behaved in a predictable manner and ran screaming banner headlines about how near to death 800,000 people came each year.

The important point was that one was beginning to change the culture of the NHS, which knew that the information was being put in the public arena. The problem with the Bill is that it leaves to the board the decision about how to disseminate information. We as citizens would be better off putting in the Bill the specific organisations to which the information should be disseminated—which is what the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, does. I strongly support it and hope that the Minister will give it very careful consideration, and will carry on the publication and dissemination of the information on an agreed basis.

I will make a couple of remarks in response to the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, about a market in commissioning skills. I have no particular wish to promote a market in commissioning skills. However, as a former Minister responsible for the performance of primary care trusts, I say that many trusts seriously lacked commissioning skills. These were lacking particularly in areas such as collecting information, analysing it and using it to establish need and to procure services to meet those needs. We should not in the Bill do anything to limit the ability of the new clinical commissioning groups to receive and acquire the skills to enable them to do their job effectively, wherever the skills may be located. That is a very important part of introducing successful new arrangements for clinical commissioning.

I pray in aid of that approach the history of Dr Foster. The dear old NHS had been collecting data for decades but was unable to use them effectively to improve performance. It took an outsider coming in—Dr Foster—to use the information and turn it into something that was useful to the NHS in terms of improving its performance. We should not be too hung up on precisely where clinical commissioning groups get their skills from to do their job.