Coronation: Policing

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Thursday 11th May 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the policing arrangements during the Coronation weekend.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my policing interests in the register and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper—which of course was submitted before the decision on yesterday’s UQ was made.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, the policing of the Coronation was a tremendous success. The event passed off without incident and tens of thousands of people were able to witness it, while hundreds who do not support a monarchy were able to express their views. I am grateful for the opportunity once again to pay tribute to the police, volunteers, staff, military and everybody else who was involved in delivering such a momentous day on behalf of the nation.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I would want to be associated with precisely that tribute, as I think would all the Members who spoke yesterday in the UQ. I think the Minister said to us yesterday that some 600 people had been arrested under the Public Order Act.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Sixty-four.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

The Minister corrects the figure. I am sure I listened, but it does not really matter. My point remains this: one of those who was arrested was a 59 year-old woman volunteering for Night Stars, which is run by Westminster City Council, providing slippers, vomit bags and rape alarms for vulnerable women coming out of nightclubs. She was arrested in the early hours of Saturday morning and held for 14 hours. I suggest that this sort of incident—I am not privy to the sort of intelligence that the Metropolitan Police may have had—suggests that we need to look at how the powers, which were highly criticised in this House, are used in practice. Will the Minister ask the Home Office to ask His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary to look at all the cases of people arrested and charged under the new Public Order Act—not just at the Coronation but over the next few months—so that this can be reported publicly, we can see whether the actions were proportionate and appropriate and whether new guidance needs to be issued or the law itself needs to be tweaked?

Hong Kong Military Veterans: Settlement

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, obviously, this goes widely beyond the remit of the Question, so I am afraid that I am unable to answer the noble Lord, but I will make sure that he is written to.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously, this is a very welcome announcement. I note what the Minister said about the number of potential applications. We understand why the forms will not be available until the autumn but he also said that the records are not in a very good state. Is he able to say how long the average application will take? Will the Home Office set performance indicators? Will those be reported to this House?

Baroness Casey Review

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point. I have had a couple of conversations with Sir Mark Rowley, but I know that the Policing Minister has had many more. It is obviously the case that our response, as well as that of the commissioner, will develop over the coming days. I think that we should give him a little bit of time to respond to this report in full. Having said that, he has been in post for six months and he has our good will and support but, to maintain that good will and support, he is going to have to deliver, and metrics and deliverables will have to be a key part of that.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my policing interests in the register. I chaired the Metropolitan Police Authority some 20 years ago, and one of my members was the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. It is a very strong and powerful report, and all credit to the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, for producing it and to Dame Cressida Dick for commissioning it in the first place. The point about the report is that it tells us things that we have known for all that period.

Strikingly, a recommendation is made by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, that says:

“As a minimum, Met officers should be required to give their name, their shoulder number, the grounds for the stop and a receipt confirming the details of the stop”.


That is something that the Metropolitan Police Authority gave instructions should happen over 20 years ago. It was introduced then, but somehow along the way it has disappeared. That is part of the way in which the police service reverts to a particular type, unless there is constant pressure and vigilance, and support for those many officers who want to make things happen.

I have two points that I want to make to the Minister. First, he said that he did not accept the statement that there is institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia, but he also said that he wanted to rebuild confidence with those communities. Maybe a statement in which the Home Office, the mayor and the commissioner all acknowledged the fact that, despite all those officers and staff who do not behave in this way, there is an institutional effect, would be part of restoring that confidence.

The second point is that today we have focused, necessarily, on the Metropolitan Police, but what assurances can the Minister give us about the state of other police forces elsewhere in the country, because I rather suspect that the diagnosis that has been made here could also be made in many other places?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I think I need to correct the record. I did not say that I did not accept that there has been evidence of institutional racism, sexism or homophobia—I said that I would not use that description, which is rather different. Of course, I accept the conclusions of the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, and there have been clear evidences of all those things, as I said earlier.

As regards other police forces, obviously this particular report deals with the Met. It is one of the five forces that are currently in Engage, so clearly there are some failings in other police forces around the country, which I think we are all familiar with. It would be unfortunate to tar all the other forces with this brush, but I am quite sure that there is evidence of the sorts of behaviours identified here in some of those things. Of course, some of them will be specific to the Met, because of course they do not necessarily mirror the structures and commands in other forces. This should be a wake-up call to all policing—I think that that is fairly evident—and I hope that senior police officers, and all police officers around the country, will make the effort to read this report and reflect.

Public Order Bill

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I lived in Notting Hill for many years, near All Saints Road, on the route of the carnival. During the carnival especially, it was a joy to often see police officers entering into the spirit and dancing. That was absolutely wonderful. We must not paint this one way or the other. But, more often than not, I saw examples, especially not during carnival, where stop and search was used in an incredibly provocative way. Having lived there for many years, I would say that there was no more socially divisive thing about policing than stop and search. I beg noble Lords to think very carefully about inflaming this position.

As I said, I met many police officers who behaved wonderfully, but there were and still are some who stop and search far too often and, as we have heard, it is on black people on the whole. If we want a socially cohesive society, we must not make laws that threaten and may undo that. I would really counsel caution about this. Anything that can help us not go too far, such as the amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, should be supported.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I will intervene very briefly to make two points. I spent about eight years overseeing police work on counterterrorism in London and more generally. The use of the Section 44 power, which gives the police the power to stop without suspicion, was one that most people, when they thought about it, would say was acceptable: they understood that they were in an area where there was an obvious terrorist target and heightened concern.

When that power was exercised, was it without controversy? I am afraid that the answer is no. There was enormous resentment towards it, precisely because of the issues about disproportionality that have already been referred to and the complications that ensued from that.

That was in circumstances when most people might understand it, when they had it quietly explained to them—which does not usually happen during the course of a normal stop and search—that, “We’re stopping you, because we’re in this area, you are close to this and we are stopping people at random, just to make sure that they are not carrying explosives or a bomb”. But this is about circumstances where people are engaging in a demonstration or exercising their civil rights. That is of a completely different order and what makes this disproportionate.

My second point may sound trivial by comparison. We have had the point made about what rank of officer should look at this. It was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, that it might be quite difficult to find a chief superintendent at the right moment. All I would say is, if this is a matter of such seriousness that we are being asked to approve these extraordinary, disproportionate powers, then there should be a chief superintendent or people of equivalent rank overseeing and supervising what is happening.

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I should say that he refers to the Terrorism Act power of stop and search. Of course, Section 44 is now replaced by Section 47A, which adopts a similar model to Clause 11. Has the noble Lord noticed and does he have any comment on the provision that the power to authorise no-suspicion stop and search under Section 47A, which can be exercised only when there is a reasonable suspicion that an act of terrorism will take place, may be taken only by a senior police officer—in other words, a commander or an assistant chief constable?

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

The noble Lord interrupted me before I sat down, although I regarded myself as having sat down. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is absolutely correct. The reason Section 44 was changed was because of the concerns that I have expressed. The conditions on that, in circumstances when most sensible people would regard it as appropriate, perhaps, to have in your back pocket the power to stop without suspicion, were tightened in a way which this Bill would not allow.

Police Misconduct Cases

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point. I certainly encourage them to speed this up. Having said that, this is a particular case. It is considered to be in the interests of justice for the legally qualified chair to go beyond the normal 100 days. Beyond that, I cannot go.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, twice said that the legally qualified chair in this case was anonymous. That is not universally the case. In many other forces, legally qualified chairs are named. Indeed, proceedings describe who is on the panel. Why is Cleveland different?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know.

Police: Appointments in PCC Offices

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, that is a very good question indeed. As I have said, confirmation hearings must be held in public and then, as the directly elected local representative for policing, it is for the PCCs to make decisions about senior appointments to their offices. As I have said many times at this Dispatch Box, ultimately PCCs are directly elected by the communities they serve and it is the public who will ultimately hold them to account for the decisions they take.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register regarding policing. This is one of the very rare situations where we have created someone who has a singular series of powers—on their own—and there is no mechanism, apart from one election every four years, to hold them to account during their term of office. Are the Government going to address that?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I imagine that the intent behind the noble Lord’s question is to ask whether we have any plans for a recall mechanism, for example. The honest answer to that is no. However, part two of the PCC review assessed the benefits and disbenefits of introducing such a mechanism, and the estimated average cost of a recall for PCCs was very significant and would require the creation of a bespoke national body. It remains for the electors to make their decisions.

Counterterrorism: Martyn’s Law

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to the letter from senior police officers to the Prime Minister on 21 November calling for the introduction of “Martyn’s Law”, when they intend to introduce counterterrorism legislation to improve the safety and security of public venues.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

I refer to my interest in the register and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are grateful to Figen Murray for her tireless campaigning for Martyn’s law. The protected duty will ensure that public places put safety and security first. We are working hard to bring forward this important piece of legislation as soon as possible.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, it is five years since the Manchester Arena bombing and Figen Murray has campaigned tirelessly following the death of her son. Had there been a Protect duty in place at that time, 22 people might not have died. The Home Office has moved with extraordinary sloth since the principle was accepted. It has consulted at length and responded to the consultation. We were promised this in the Queen’s Speech. When is this going to happen, or do we have to wait for another atrocity?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Bringing forward this legislation was a 2019 manifesto commitment. As the noble Lord noted, there was supposed to be a consultation in early 2020, but that was delayed due to Covid. It was eventually undertaken between 26 February and 2 July 2021. It was a very comprehensive consultation process with more than 2,500 responses, and the duty has received strong support from businesses and others. As I say, the Government are committed to bringing forward this important legislation, as per the Queen’s Speech, as soon as parliamentary time allows.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. I am, of course, happy to try to give that assurance from the Dispatch Box but, as we know, all police forces and emergency services remain operationally independent to some extent. The fact is that they have access to the various services I have outlined, through Contest.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sorry to come back to the Minister, but the question just asked by his noble friend highlights that there is a lot of guidance there. The whole point of this proposed legislation was that it would place a duty to act proportionately on those responsible for public venues. I cannot understand why there is this continued delay. Is it simply that there is no parliamentary time, given that both Houses seem to have a very light load at the moment?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

From my personal point of view, I am not sure that it is a particularly light load. As the noble Lord says, the duty will enhance public security by introducing new requirements for certain public places to ensure preparedness. It is necessary: there is no disagreement about that. It will come forward as soon as parliamentary time allows.

Public Order Bill

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 16th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, these things are judged on a case-by-case basis. It would depend entirely on where I was, what I was doing and also the intention as described in Clause 2 of the Bill.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened with great interest to the Minister’s reply to the Committee’s discussion on this. Could he explain why, rather than trying to define all these activities—this happening, that happening and this piece of equipment and so on—has he not sought to do it in terms of intent, and a requirement that before an offence is committed intent to cause disruption is demonstrated?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

That is captured. As I say,

“A person commits an offence if they have an object with them in a place other than a dwelling with the intention that it may be used in the course of or in connection with the commission by any person of an offence under section 1”.

Police National Computer

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. The police national computer has been hosted on Fujitsu mainframe technology for over 30 years, and existing Fujitsu-leased hardware technology would not have been viable to use beyond March 2022. It required urgent replacement, which is why Fujitsu was selected. The market engagement exercise held in 2020 to review options to replace the Fujitsu hardware and support found no viable alternative solutions, and that is why Fujitsu received this contract—which, I should also stress, is making up the difference between now and when the new police national computer comes into operation. I could go on, but there was basically no alternative.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has given us a very interesting answer. Basically, he said that it came as a big shock to the Home Office that this equipment had expired. Can he tell us what confidence he has in the Home Office’s management of IT contracts of various sizes—bearing in mind, for example, the grotesque overspending on the replacement of the Airwave system for emergency services communication, and the fact that that contract has overrun by five or six years already, with no sign that the costs are going to be met?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid that that is not what I said to the noble Baroness or to the House at all. I have confidence that Fujitsu will deliver on this.

Metropolitan Police: Misconduct

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I shall certainly take that suggestion back. I am sure that all options will be considered.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register in respect of policing. We are grateful, of course, to the Minister for explaining the complicated arrangements for the governance of policing in London, but could we be clear? He said that the Minister said that the commissioner will have the support of the Home Office. Will that extend to looking at how legally qualified chairs of panels have overturned disciplinary decisions? And, when the going gets extremely tough, will the Home Office support the commissioner? It was the previous commissioner who brought in the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, to do this excellent report; will the Home Office now support the new commissioner in making sure that this is implemented—even when it becomes controversial, as it will?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord asked me two questions. I refer back to my previous answer on police dismissals. The review will investigate the impact of the introduction of legally qualified chairs. I believe the policy is about seven years old now and it deserves to be looked at, for obvious reasons. As for Home Office support, I think I have been very clear: Sir Mark Rowley enjoys the trust and confidence of the Home Office and the Secretary of State.