Lord Harris of Haringey
Main Page: Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour - Life peer)Consumer Rights Bill
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Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, raised some interesting issues. However, I am slightly disappointed that he did not attempt to sort out some other problems at the same time, as a number of issues such as product descriptions and advertisements of the size or quantity of goods, particularly food products, could usefully be addressed in this amendment. If he gets the traditional rebuff that Members of the Committee expect from the Minister, he might want to consider including those issues as additional items when he brings the amendment back on Report.
I have noticed a tendency for supermarkets to surreptitiously change the size of products, usually food products but also others, as a means of covertly increasing the price, so things which were previously sold at 140 grams weight are now sold at 120 grams weight. Conveniently, the label moves from the front of the packaging to somewhere at the back, often to a place where it is difficult to read. These are all issues that could usefully be addressed if we are trying to simplify and improve the quality of product descriptions and amendments. It is pertinent that we should look at it.
The noble Lord also highlights in his proposed new schedule the anomaly that exists in the markings on beer glasses. However, for those of us who drink rather more wine than beer, there is even more of an anomaly as places that sell wine by the glass may claim that the glass contains 150 millilitres, or whatever it is, but when you look at it, to the untutored eye, it does not look as though it is anything like that amount. I have on occasion challenged this in restaurants and been told, “Sorry, it’s a big mistake. We have given you the small measure rather than the large”, and a smidgen more appears. However, if one is trying to rationalise this—and the motivation of the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, is entirely helpful in addressing this issue—you might as well try to get a number of other things right. Between now and Report perhaps he and the ministerial team will see what else can be got right and included in the Bill.
Baroness King of Bow (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, makes a persuasive argument, to which I listened with great interest. It is interesting to note that we use metres and kilometres for our athletics, miles per gallon for our cars, pints for our milk and beer, miles for our speed limits, feet for our height measurements, and our distances are often measured in yards. As the noble Lord pointed out, we have been hemming and hawing on this issue for 800 years, so I doubt that we will sort it out in the next eight minutes. Suffice it to say that Amendment 81 would safeguard a critical element of British heritage, not to mention a key aspect of British identity—the right to buy beer and milk in pints. For some reason, the self-esteem of the British people depends on it. I thank the noble Lord for bringing this issue before us. As my noble friend Lord Harris said, the motivation behind these amendments is entirely helpful. I hope that we will get a thoughtful response from the Minister and I look forward to returning to this on Report.
Baroness Crawley
My Lords, I rise to support the amendment in the names of my noble friend Lady Hayter and the noble Lord, Lord Best. This amendment proposes that the requirement in the Bill for trading standards to give 48 hours’ notice to businesses before entering their premises be removed. In supporting this amendment, I remind noble Lords that it is my privilege to be the current president of the Trading Standards Institute. I refer noble Lords to my entry in the register of interests.
Let us be clear: the power to enter business premises remains but the Bill introduces a new safeguard requiring written notice to be served before entering. Because of the strong response to this highly controversial proposal from the enforcement profession, there is now a list of exemptions to this new proposal from the Government. However, I believe, as do several other noble Lords, that these exemptions will only lead to confusion and the possible introduction of overcautious behaviour on the part of the trading standards profession, which is already seriously stretched. It will also lead to increased financial and judicial burdens, as outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Best.
I remind noble Lords that the budgets of trading standards departments at local government level have in some cases seen cuts of up to 86% since 2009. While the Government have listened and made some changes to the Bill, the Trading Standards Institute does not believe that those changes yet strike the right balance, which the noble Lord, Lord Best, talked about. It is essential that we achieve that balance between the right to carry on a business unimpeded by officials and the right to protect consumers.
It is not the case that all businesses are clamouring for the removal of unannounced visits. In a recent edition of The Grocer, the chairman of a large cash-and-carry business in the north-west stated:
“It is independent retailers saying that local authority test purchasing is less effective if there has to be 48 hours notice of a visit.”
Many retailers welcome spot checks because they want to see a level playing field in the high street and with larger retailers.
Last week I spoke to a trading standards officer about food fraud in the light of the very important Elliot report into the horsemeat scandal, which the Minister has referred to. She told me that while checking one of those large storage units that are so prevalent nowadays—we seem to have a lot of things to store in our lives, do we not?—she came across a unit that was being used to cut up some kind of raw meat. This was a unit that was usually used to store furniture; it had no running water or utilities necessary for processing meat. The trading standards officer had the unit closed down immediately. She was able to close it down under the Food Safety Act—which the Minister has also referred to—because, unlike this proposed legislation being brought forward under BIS, food fault is an area where spot checks are still allowed: 48 hours’ notice is not required. Had that unit been processing highly dangerous electrical goods—such as in the tragic case of the phone chargers to which the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred, or the hair straighteners that I have seen in trading standards offices and which can be very detrimental to health when they are criminally produced—she would most likely have had to give 48 hours’ notice. No doubt she would never have seen the rogue trader again.
Life is hard enough for the seriously overstretched trading standards service—which still does a magnificent job on behalf of the public—without putting another bureaucratic obstacle in its way. Such an obstacle could only allow rogue traders to prosper, damaging legitimate businesses—which are, of course, the vast majority of businesses in this country—and diminishing consumer protection.
Before I sit down I would like to ask the Minister where the evidence is that these inspections interfere with or hamper the operation of a business. The recent Elliott report on food fraud highlights the value of unannounced inspections, so why are the Government moving away from them in this Bill? The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Best—which is also signed by my noble friend—denotes the line between the honest business and the hard-pressed consumer on the one side, and the rogue trader on the other. I call on noble Lords to support this amendment.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I repeat my declaration of interest as chair of National Trading Standards. Will the Minister tell us what exactly is the problem that the clauses we are debating now are there to solve? What is the evidence that this has been a power that has been abused or misused by trading standards departments? If she can give us chapter and verse today, I would like her to do so but, if not, I ask her to lay in the Library all the complaints that the Department for Business has received on this specific point. It is not clear to me that this has ever been a significant problem or burden on anybody.
We have to recognise that, certainly as initially put forward, this proposal was a complete nonsense. It was essentially saying that: if you were a rogue trader who had something to hide, you would have 48 hours to make sure that it really was hidden before the trading standards department came around to do an inspection. Since then, we have made some changes which are the exclusions in paragraph 23(5) of Schedule 5. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, suggested, they pose a whole series of new potential problems. For example, the power of entry is to be exercised by an officer when,
“the officer reasonably suspects a breach of the enforcer’s legislation”.
What does “reasonably” amount to in this case? I have seen how litigious some of the people against whom enforcement action has been taken can be. They will string things out and argue abuse of process. The more serious the case, the more they argue. The litigious will say that there were no “reasonable” grounds. What is going to be the basis of the reasonable suspicion? All of this will have to be defined and the danger is that that will lead to litigation which takes up more time and generates more problems as a result.
If the officer reasonably—that word comes in again—suspects that there is an imminent risk to public health or safety, that is fine, but that is about public health and public safety. Other issues may arise where the evidence will disappear. What is it that is being gained by these changes? The whole point of having the power of random inspection is not just to find something on the occasions when a random inspection is made; it is also the deterrent implication for all those whom the inspector may or may not visit. There is a chance that they will be inspected, something will be found and the consequences will flow. If that is taken away, frankly, one of the most effective deterrent mechanisms as far as these issues are concerned will be lost.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for provoking a wide-ranging and thoughtful debate. As I mentioned in respect of the previous amendment, we are consolidating and updating consumer law investigatory powers in order to make enforcement more efficient and more effective. I will try not to be too repetitious of that debate, but I will repeat something I said in earlier sessions of this Committee: I feel strongly that trading standards officers around the country do a very good job. I have dealt with them a lot over many years and I am very grateful for the work they do.
The Government are keen to support the honest trader and to tackle the rogue, so there is a joint and agreed objective in these areas. I am going to speak at some length, for which I apologise in advance. I hope that noble Lords will realise that our heart is in the right place and we are trying to do the right thing in this area. As I have said, we are consolidating and simplifying consumer law investigatory powers across 60 pieces of legislation, setting them all in one place. This variety of instruments can be a cause of confusion and a burden for enforcers as well as businesses. We are also clarifying the law to make it easier for trading standards to work across their local authority boundaries in order to tackle the rogue traders who cause real harm to consumers and damage consumer confidence and reputable businesses.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked about what had happened with the consultation and about the benefit to consumers. I can confirm that we did have mixed responses, but the British Retail Consortium and the Federation of Small Businesses, which together represent a large number of small businesses, support the notice provision. Businesses in general welcome it for reasons that I will come on to explain. It reduces the burdens and unnecessary costs that they are facing, and those costs are in turn passed on to consumers in a competitive market. The Government consider it vital that trading standards and other consumer law enforcers can protect us from businesses that are deliberately or inadvertently breaking the law.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am sorry to interrupt her, but can the Minister tell us why it is more costly for a business to be inspected without notice than it is to be inspected with notice?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
If the noble Lord would bear with me, I have an example which we can debate.
While we share some common objectives, there are clearly real differences of opinion about how trading standards officers and other law enforcers should carry out their duties. The Government start from the principle behind the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which aims to protect civil liberties and reduce burdensome and intrusive powers of entry. It starts from the simple premise that an investigating officer should have good reason for entering premises. This is really important because both as private individuals and as businesses we should rightly expect to be treated as law-abiding unless there is a justification. The requirement in the Bill for enforcers to give two days’ written notice for routine inspections—I emphasise routine—flows from this principle. However, we take very seriously the importance of ensuring that enforcers such as trading standards can continue to tackle rogue traders. I am sorry to keep repeating this but I think it is common ground, and I can assure noble Lords that we are doing nothing to prevent enforcers investigating illegal activities—quite the opposite.
Let me explain in more detail why we have decided to require notice for routine inspections. Enforcers currently have some very intrusive powers such as the power to enter commercial premises without a warrant to carry out their inspections. They can demand that documents are produced and break open containers, and any person on the premises has to provide assistance and the information requested. Small businesses have told us that unannounced inspections are burdensome and inefficient. In particular, the Federation of Small Businesses is concerned about unannounced visits and has said that booking inspections in advance will allow the businesses to ensure the appropriate staff and paperwork are available. This ensures that neither the trader’s nor the enforcer’s time is wasted in these routine inspections. The owner or manager might be visiting a supplier away from the premises, leaving a junior member of staff not equipped to deal with an investigator’s questions or to find the documents needed. Staff may be in the middle of receiving deliveries or busy dealing with customers or an important new client when the enforcer arrives. This can be disruptive and embarrassing for the business. While large retailers may be able to cope more easily—the noble Lord mentioned them—it is really difficult for compliant businesses to see why they should be so disrupted when they are giving no cause for suspicion.
Business disruption hits the bottom line. We estimate that this measure would generate net savings to the economy of almost £50 million over 10 years. This net figure includes the savings to business as well as the costs and benefits to enforcers arising from a greater degree of efficiency in inspection.
Of course, I agree entirely that businesses cannot expect to have notice of an inspection when there is risk of a breach of the law. We have listened very carefully to enforcers’ concerns on that: to local authorities, regulators and trading standards officers, as I think was hinted at earlier in the discussion. Therefore, the Bill provides a number of very clear exemptions that still allow enforcers to carry out unannounced inspections, as they do at present, where they need to investigate illegal activities and matters of urgency. I will go through those and try to pick up the examples that have been quoted in debates and which have obviously been concerning people.
The first exemption would apply where an enforcer reasonably suspects a breach, for example where the sale of counterfeit alcohol is suspected or where a test purchase has been made and failed, e.g. on an age-restricted purchase. The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, asked about access to warehouses and whether, if the officer suspects a breach, the exemption applies. Of course, that is particularly important in relation to rogue traders and the same would be true of the example of the sale of counterfeit goods.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Is it then reasonable for a local authority to invoke that grounds of reasonable suspicion if, for example, it is clear to the trading standards department in a small town that a certain form of counterfeit or dangerous goods is circulating and there are eight potential retailers who might be selling it? Is it then reasonable for the trading standards department to inspect all eight? If it is reasonable to inspect all eight in that town, is it reasonable to inspect 200 in a city?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
In my opinion, that is reasonable if there is a suspicion—for example, if trading standards officers have had some intelligence. There is an example I am coming to about cigarette butts, unless we cut that out. In relation to each of these exemptions, I am trying to explain why they are generously drafted so that we can do what we think is needed.
The second exemption would apply where giving notice would defeat the purpose of entry, for example, where an enforcer suspects that counterfeit DVDs are being sold and the enforcer considers that the traders in question are likely to conceal the illegal products if notice is given. The third exemption would apply where it is not reasonably practicable in all the circumstances to give notice, for instance because an officer reasonably suspects that there is an imminent risk to public health or safety. For example, enforcers may find evidence of illicit tobacco, such as stubs and papers, in the street near a couple of suspected outlets. The enforcers need to act swiftly to remove it from sale. I know that illicit tobacco is a concern.
A fourth exemption would apply where the enforcer is carrying out market surveillance, for example to check the safety of toys. Finally, notice need not be given where the trader has waived the requirement to give notice so that agreement to an immediate visit is always possible. We also carefully listened and have already responded to the BIS Select Committee’s very sensible recommendation on this issue by simplifying the exemption for giving notice where that would defeat the purpose of the visit. That is the second safeguard I referred to and I think that noble Lords commented favourably on that earlier in the debate.
I have set out these examples to show that we really are only talking about giving notice for routine inspections. In my view, it is perfectly reasonable to do that and highly desirable. Routine inspections are where a business, such as a DIY store, may be operating properly without any significant breaches of legislation. Trading standards may consider them to present a risk simply due to the nature of the sector in which they operate or because of the time that has lapsed since an inspection. Trading standards officers have raised with us a number of examples where they felt they would need to inspect without notice and, without exception, we were able to show how the powers of these wide-ranging exemptions could be used.
For example, another area which has been referred to in the debate is where an officer wishes to check whether petrol is being sold in short measures. The officer can use the power to carry out a test purchase and if that discloses a potential breach by the trader, he can immediately exercise a power of entry in order to investigate. Another concern that was raised is when an enforcer comes across a new shop during visits to other premises. I am happy to confirm that an enforcer can enter those premises immediately, using the power to observe the business, or indeed he can undertake a test purchase. If while on the premises he discovers that fireworks, for example, are being sold in breach of regulations—or mattresses, as one noble Lord mentioned—the enforcer can make a test purchase. If that discloses a potential breach by the trader, the officer can exercise a power of entry immediately.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
It means observing as though the officer was a member of the public, but obviously a test purchase can be undertaken. The officer can speak to the trader and agree that there should be an exemption, in which case the exemption would apply. Moreover, if the officer suspects a breach, that also implies.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Perhaps I may press this point a little because it is important and getting to the root of the issue now might save the Minister time later. What is sufficient for a suspicion of an individual trader? The officer has made a test purchase and now he has prima facie information to suggest that the trader is up to something. That is straightforward and no one would see any issues around that. However, I will come back to my example. It is known that something is circulating in a town and it is likely that it has only been purchased from retailers in that town. Is that sufficient to cover all the retailers? Does that change if we are talking about eight retailers or 200 retailers? That is also possible. If it covers 200 retailers, that would certainly reduce any concerns I might have, but if it covers eight retailers, I would like to know what the cut-off number is.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
As my noble friend the Chief Whip has just mentioned, you must have some sense of proportionality. I think that I gave a clear answer to the question of eight retailers earlier and I stand by that. Once we get to 200 retailers, we could be in slightly different territory. However, if there is a reasonable suspicion of a breach—although 200 premises seems to be rather an unlikely example—
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, but perhaps I may give a specific example. There is a suspicion about a dangerous electrical fitting such as a plug adaptor which the trading standards department has come across and knows is circulating in the area, and those plug adaptors might be on sale in several hundred small retail outlets, local shops and newsagents which sell a range of other things. Without being unreasonable about it, there might well be several hundred outlets in an area. It may be thought that the device was such that it could kill someone, which means that the test would be proportionately higher. That is what I am trying to get at.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I can reassure the noble Lord on that point. There is of course another exemption on the grounds of health and safety and I am absolutely clear that it would apply in that case.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The officers would be looking for a faulty electrical product that might be in circulation in an area; there would be a suspicion. That is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. I am sorry, but I wanted to take the noble Lord through the examples in order to explain how the power will be used.
Perhaps noble Lords will bear with me while I make another point about powers of entry. The powers that other law enforcers have when they investigate offences are of interest, and the noble Lord has raised one or two of those. The police have no general powers of entry to commercial premises. They can enter a premises only with reasonable suspicion or a warrant. So there is, if you like, a form of notice. Even with a notice requirement, enforcers such as trading standards will have very substantial powers—more powers than the police, who deal with serious offences and serious crimes.
A noble Lord mentioned Ofsted—a question I have asked, actually. For practical purposes, Ofsted does give notice. It normally gives up to two working days’ notice before a planned inspection to a further education college—that is, a routine visit—but for schools, notice is given by midday on the working day before the start of the inspection. But it also has the right, quite rightly, to undertake unannounced inspections in cases of serious concern.
The noble Lord, Lord Best, asked about interpretation. I assure the Committee that we will be providing guidance. We are not creating principles such as reasonable suspicion. They are already well understood but obviously we will need to explain them for day-to-day work.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked about evidence of the abuse of powers. This is not about abuse of powers; it is about reducing the burden on business from intrusive powers of entry and protecting civil liberties. It is about routine inspections, which, in my opinion, should be the subject of a warning. Where there are reasonable grounds of suspicion, obviously you can proceed immediately. I am a businessperson and I think business planning can have value in these circumstances.
I was also asked how notice can be given. Notice can be given by post or e-mail to the occupier or by leaving it at the premises. Actually, we have engaged extensively with the trading standards community while formulating the exemptions. That brings me on to the point that a number of noble Lords have made about the funding of the trading standards service. Obviously, spending and resourcing decisions are made by individual local authorities, which are better placed to make decisions about the enforcement needs of their communities than central government. Like all parts of central and local government, the services have faced budget reductions in recent years. There is no point denying it; that is agreed.
As noble Lords know, the Government are committed to tackling the inherited budget deficit by making savings and trying to improve value for money for the taxpayer, and this is part of that effort. We greatly value the work of trading standards to protect consumers from rogue traders and scammers, and we want to develop a better understanding of the impact it has across the economy. That is why, in partnership with the Trading Standards Institute, we have commissioned a group of academics at the Institute of Local Government Studies in Birmingham to undertake research to build an evidence base on the impact, effectiveness and efficiency of services, how improvements can be made, what works well and how we can do partnerships. This sort of evaluation is really important in public policy.
I think I have pretty well finished. I was asked about the deterrence effect of inspections. We would be concerned about the resource implications for trading standards services where uncovering breaches by chance is seen as an effective strategy for the future, even on the basis that it has been useful in the past. Targeting finite enforcement resources using an intelligence-led approach is a more efficient and effective strategy. I speak as a former businesswoman, with experience of a pretty small business trying to do a good job, and I think that better planning and targeting can save money both for business and for enforcers.
In conclusion, it has been an important and good debate. I have listened. I have tried to explain where we are coming from in the way in which we have drafted the Bill. I am trying to ensure that the investigatory powers in the Bill, modernised and brought together, strike the right balance between protecting civil liberties, reducing the burden on compliant businesses and ensuring that enforcers can tackle rogue traders.
Baroness Crawley
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment and her very important call for a government review of the powers of trading standards officers, given the responsibilities inherent in the Bill.
In the trading standards workforce survey of March 2014—despite the health warning on it from my noble friend Lord Harris—a picture emerges of a service that is still excellent but is teetering on the edge of sustainability. Trading standards staff numbers have fallen by almost half in the past five years. Numbers of trading standards officers per service range from half an officer in one local authority to 48 officers in another, with apparently little reference to the population size of the areas they serve or the number of businesses in those areas.
The Minister has just spoken, in relation to the previous amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, about needing to be an intelligence-led service, particularly in the future. I applaud that but what if there is no one left to gather the intelligence? We are seeing that in some places now. We all want a service that is effective and capable of meeting current and future expectations in the Bill, in order to fulfil its public safety remit and its consumer protection remit.
Trading standards officers take great pride in their work and they welcome the support that they receive from government. They want to make a full contribution to economic growth, public health, environmental protection and safer communities but their depleted numbers make that more and more difficult. In the workforce survey, more than 30% of trading standards authorities that responded mentioned stopping or limiting several second-tier advice services to consumers. Nearly all respondents stated that service provision would be reduced, with most proactive work ceasing and some services providing only the statutory minimum.
The functions under threat in local authorities include underage sales work, intellectual property, food sampling and animal feed. Non-statutory community projects such as the no cold-calling zones, which have been very successful, and trusted trader schemes, as well as the provision of free business advice, are also at risk. Several authorities will be introducing a system of responding only to complaints from vulnerable consumers or those with very immediate risk to their safety.
The trading standards service is centuries old. We have recently been commemorating the trading standards officers who gave their lives in the First World War. Many trading standards officers have in the past travelled to countries around the world to share our best practice. Ours is considered to be one of the finest services globally. We should be proud of that. Therefore, I ask the Minister, who I know is a good supporter of trading standards, to look favourably on my noble friend’s amendment and not simply say that this is the domain of local government and that therefore she is unable to intervene.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, this is probably a helpful amendment from my noble friend. The reason I say “probably” is that I am not sure that it is asking all the right questions: it is asking two of the right questions, but I suspect that there is a third one as well. One of the good provisions—which I actually think should be incorporated in all of the legislation that goes through Parliament—is the one introducing some mechanism for reviewing, once the legislation has passed, how much the powers that have been granted to whoever have been exercised, whether they have worked, and so on, and what the cost has been. Paragraphs (a) and (b) here are very much a part of that. I would like to see those incorporated in every piece of legislation that we pass because it would be helpful. I sometimes think that government departments put forward these things and then nobody ever looks at them again until perhaps 20 years later, when there is a Law Commission review as to whether anything has actually happened. This would provide the raw material to see what happened. It is particularly critical in this area because we know the extent to which trading standards departments are overstretched and in real difficulties. Therefore, it would be extremely valuable to understand whether this has been yet another set of powers, duties and obligations placed on them that they simply cannot cope with.
The second important thing done by the amendment is to try to set a standard for individual trading standards officers; to say essentially that there should be a properly recognised qualification and describe how all that would work. That is also extremely helpful. The amount of law that trading standards officers are expected to enforce—I think there are 250 pieces of legislation and the number rises constantly—covers an enormous range of areas of activity and requires a degree of specialist skills. Some of them require investigatory skills and financial skills in addition to all that, so having some minimum standard as to what officers should do is helpful and useful.
What the amendment omits is the minimum standard that our citizens—from whichever local authority—have the legitimate right to expect from local trading standards. What is the minimum level of protection that we can expect from local trading standards? That is the area where this amendment could be strengthened. Obviously, if the Government accept this amendment today, there would be progress and no doubt my noble friends would then introduce an amendment on Report which focused just on this issue. Otherwise, if they bring it back, perhaps they could look at this wider issue as well. This is important because there is enormous variation between local authorities in terms of trading standards provision.
As a former local government leader, I absolutely espouse the importance of local accountability, localism and so on. That is an absolute principle, but there were plenty of areas when I was a council leader where, yes, we had local discretion and espoused the principle of localism, but we were expected to achieve certain minimum standards. That is not the case as far as trading standards and consumer protection are concerned. It would be helpful to try to find some way to enable the Department for Business to look at whether there was an acceptable minimum standard or level of trading standards provision in every local authority. I am conscious that the level of provision made by local authorities necessarily depends on their block grant. That is determined not by the noble Baroness and her colleagues in the Department for Business, but by the Department for Communities and Local Government. Consumer protection is one very miniscule part of that block grant. It would be in everyone’s interest—particularly in the interest of all of us as citizens or consumers—if there were some clear minimum standards laid down. Perhaps some work done on the back of a small amendment to this Bill over the next year or so would be extremely helpful in setting out what that minimum should be.