Ukrainian Asylum Seekers and Refugees

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Lord Paddick

Tuesday 7th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harrington of Watford (Con)]

I am not aware of any plans the Government have to extend that to the EU settlement scheme.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, at a Home Affairs Select Committee meeting on 11 May, a senior Home Office official said that undocumented people who travel from Ukraine to the UK could be considered for removal to Rwanda and the Minister refused to say whether Ukrainians who arrive in the UK across the channel by boat could also be sent to the central African country. If, out of desperation because of the significant delays the Minister has just told the House about—19,000 applicants are still awaiting an outcome—these people arrive in the UK without a visa, could they be sent to Rwanda?

Homes for Ukraine: Visa Application Centres

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Lord Paddick

Thursday 28th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harrington of Watford (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his response. His first question was why young children need to have their biometrics done, and he said that it could mean they have to travel a long way to do it. The reason why they have to have their biometrics done, and the reason why all this procedure takes place, is simply to make sure that they are indeed the children of the parent they are with. I have visited a VAC, having taken notice of what the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said—as I always do and as indeed I did when he was in the other place—because it is very serious. It is about as light-touch as is imaginable. For example, I saw a young child whose only form of identification to show that she was indeed the child of that mother was a letter from the doctor who delivered the child in Ukraine. That was acceptable, as are birth certificates. There is not a very high level of proof, but we just have to make sure because of our information about traffickers of young children. I know that the noble Lord would sympathise with that.

The noble Lord’s second question was, why do we not tell people when they have got the visa? There have been delays, and I am now assured that that is not the case. I am sure that the noble Lord will have me here at this very Dispatch Box if he has reports to the contrary, but he knows he could tell me that personally beforehand.

Finally, the noble Lord asked why there are so few arrivals compared to the total amount of visas. This has been perplexing me. The main reason for my recent visit to Poland was to try to find out why it has happened. There are a number of reasons, and I have commissioned some professional research on it given the number of people who have got visas compared to the number coming, so I can give the noble Lord only my opinion based on what I saw. I think that there are two reasons. One of them is that it has taken too long for people to get the visas from the time of their application—I accept that and have done my best to make sure that it is not the case, and we are now at “friction”, which means that the target of 48 hours should in the vast majority of cases be met.

The second reason—again, this is not research or a systematic poll or anything like that; it is from speaking to people involved—is that many of the refugees take our visas out in case the worst happens beyond now, but, for the moment, a lot of them believe that they can go back and live in their country, and they wish to stay as close as possible. I have had quite a few moving experiences in Syria and other places, but seeing young women speaking on mobile phones to their husbands and fathers who are fighting in live time—which I know can obviously be done with technology—I can imagine why they want to stay as near as possible. I am working on this, and I intend to make sure that the system is simplified and that we have people helping people through the procedure. If necessary, we will move on to helping them with flights and with everything in the process.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, a brief answer from the Minister would be appreciated. Initially, the Home Office said that Ukrainian refugees had to have a visa because of concerns that Russian agents would pretend to be refugees. The Home Office then changed its mind and said that Ukrainian refugees had to have a visa because of concerns, as the Minister has said, about trafficking. Yet, all other European nations have accepted Ukrainian refugees visa free because the Ukrainians put systems in place to protect vulnerable people, and so did the countries receiving them. A Home Office whistleblower told the Guardian on Saturday that the system was “designed to fail”. Is that not nearer the truth?

[Lord Harrington of Watford (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for his comments and will try to be as brief as he wants me to be. On the reasons for the visas, I do not recognise the one about the infiltration of secret agents. I do, however, recognise the point about safeguarding, trafficking and so on. I hope that the noble Lord knows that I have done my best to ensure that this procedure is carried out as quickly as possible, but I make no excuses for our trying to identify that people who come here are who they say they are before they arrive. This is very important.

I do not accept what the whistleblower has said in the Guardian. I would like them to come and speak to me, and I would be very happy to go through it with them—that is how I run my whole ministry. I do not recognise that point.

Homes for Ukraine Scheme

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Lord Paddick

Monday 28th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harrington of Watford (Con)]

It should not be my job always to agree with the questions that are asked but, in this case, I totally believe in the sentiment that the right reverend Prelate expressed. I am looking at every aspect of the visa process to speed it up. The Home Secretary and I have personally spent hours with officials, including at weekends, looking at ways that we can speed this up because, if the security checks are put in place—which they are—it seems to me that there is no reason why people applying on the internet, or indeed at a visa centre in the countries adjacent to Ukraine, should not be able to get a response really quickly to allow them to come here. I cannot stand here for a long time using the excuse that I am new to the job, but I promise the right reverend Prelate and noble Lords that this is an absolute top priority.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, whatever their advice, the security services advise Ministers, but it is Ministers who decide. Why is almost every other European country—Ireland, for example—content to allow Ukrainian refugees to enter visa-free while the UK is demanding a visa before entry? Do our security services not liaise with our allies? Instead of security, is it because such an approach would contradict the proposed inhumane treatment of refugees in the Nationality and Borders Bill?

[Lord Harrington of Watford (Con)]

I cannot comment to the noble Lord about the security services, except to say that I have not seen the advice that they have given to the Prime Minister. However, my instructions are to speed up this process as quickly as possible to move an uncapped number of people here in a humanitarian and decent way. It is my intention to deliver that promise.

Ukraine Sponsorship Scheme

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Lord Paddick

Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I too welcome the Minister to the House and to the Front Bench.

Of course, we welcome in principle an unlimited scheme where UK residents can sponsor Ukrainian refugees, but Homes for Ukraine is limited by other schemes. First, the Government still insist that all Ukrainian refugees must have a visa, while all member states of the European Union are allowing visa-free entry. These refugees are in desperate need now, and a fast response is required. Countries bordering Ukraine are being overwhelmed and they need us to take some of the pressure off them. Why is the Government restricting the flow of refugees into the UK?

The Government cite security concerns for slowing things down, but the Irish Prime Minister was interviewed on the BBC’s “Sunday Morning” programme, where he said that the need for a humanitarian response to Europe’s biggest refugee crisis since World War II

“trumps anything as far as we’re concerned.”

Mr Martin said the view within the EU is that all borders should be open to Ukrainians for as long as Russian bombs and missiles are being targeted at civilian populations inside Ukraine. He went on to say:

“We can all see the humanitarian crisis, we do know that that can be exploited by certain bad actors, but our security personnel will keep an eye on that in a more general way.”


If Ireland can keep an eye on security issues once refugees arrive in Ireland, why can the UK not adopt the same approach? Bearing in mind that there are no passport checks between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland and between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, how does the UK and Ireland having a different approach make any sense? The Minister in the other place talked about putting humanity first; the UK is clearly putting visas first.

Another bottleneck in the process is caused by sponsoring families in the UK having to identify Ukrainian nationals or families by name in order to sponsor them. How are older people without IT skills who are fleeing Ukraine supposed to identify themselves to British sponsors, let alone complete a 50-page online form to get a visa? I know that the Minister is trying to cut that form down, but is it not a fact that the most in need are the least likely to get to the UK quickly?

Another barrier to accessing the heartwarming generosity of British families is that the programme is initially open only to refugees who have known connections to the UK sponsor. The Minister in the other place said that

“we will … expand the scheme in a phased way”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/3/21; col. 620.]

Can the Minister explain what the various phases are and when they will be in operation?

Another potential bottleneck are DBS checks for sponsors. There are already backlogs. What additional resources are the Government providing to ensure that necessary safeguarding checks are done in good time? Some of those volunteering to sponsor will already have been DBS checked. What are the Government doing to match unaccompanied child refugees, in particular, with those who have already been safeguarding checked, rather than expecting these sponsors to identify the most vulnerable?

What consultation has taken place with local authorities on whether the £10,500 per refugee is enough to provide additional school places and child mental health support, which is often assessed by child psychologists working in schools, and the other range of services that refugees are likely need? The Minister in the other place said that the payment to sponsors of £350 a month would not affect benefit entitlement or council tax status, but would a single-person sponsor lose their single-person council tax discount? In short, where is the detailed plan for how this nice idea is going to work in practice? I know that the Minister wants to do his best, but we believe that the constraints within which he is being asked to operate are too restrictive.

[The Minister of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and Home Office (Lord Harrington of Watford) (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. I should point out that this is technically not my maiden speech; I am told that it is my first speech but not my maiden speech. I leave it to noble Lords to work out what that means, because I am not sure.

As many might know, I was offered this job because of my experience from the programme that we did for Syria. At the time, I was the first person to be a Minister in three different government departments at the same time. On my return to this hugely enhanced job—the two are not the same—I am doing my best, in the few days available, to get the team who successfully did the Syrian programme back into action. It is a bit like one of those bands from my childhood that, 10 years later, completely reforms with some different artists and some of the main ones. And if I slip into Commons terminology, I apologise. I realise that I may have just one excuse for doing that tonight, so I will try not to.

I will deal first with the subjects brought up by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. Basically, she requested more information about the scheme. I understand that. The questions raised by both the speakers are perfectly proper. No one is playing politics with this and I know that no one is trying to take advantage. We are learning quickly. I will explain the visa, because both the contributions come down to whether we need visas, why we need visas, why it is taking such a long time and what a bureaucratic performance this is when people are dying, suffering and living in appalling conditions.

When I was offered the job by the Prime Minister, the only criterion that I was given, as alluded to by the noble Lord, was a security one. It is my job to make sure that this is done as quickly and as humanely as possible. I know that no one in this Chamber or in the other place would question the fact that national security comes first, but that does not mean that we are obsessed by it.

The current situation is that people fill out a form. It is unacceptable that it is 50 pages and I have been through every page of it with the Home Secretary. By the way, I do not think that anyone is trying to mislead, but it is slightly misleading to say that it is 50 pages because, on most of them, if you click yes, the page after does not come through. Quite why anyone historically, never mind a refugee, has to do the whole lot I do not know, but there will be a lot less of it by Friday and, shall we say, far more obstacles removed after that.

Nevertheless, a form has to be filled in on a mobile phone, tablet or laptop. This is for Ukrainian passport holders, who will download their passport. This is not in a visa centre, by the way; it can be done everywhere. Then it will be sent electronically to the Home Office, where we have a team that we are gearing up all the time. It is in excess of 100 people now and will be gearing up to be double that by the weekend. Very soon afterwards, the refugees will receive a response. I have to be a bit of a politician and waffly by saying “very soon afterwards”; I have set a target of 24 hours and it may be more if the team is so overwhelmed, but I expect it to come down and down. The only reason for that delay—it really boils down to this—is so that criminal record checks can be done from all the databases that the team has. It is no more complex than that.

The passport holders then get a PDF back, which gives them the right to get on a plane and come here. It is not as cumbersome as it was and they do not have to go to a visa centre. The visa centres are being kept open with enhanced hours for people who do not have documentation—vulnerable children and groups that we can spend a lot more time dealing with. I hope that I have briefly covered the visa point brought up by both speakers tonight. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, summed it up as “fast response required” and I hope that I have gone some way towards that.

This is not being used as a tool to restrict the number of refugees who we are taking in. This is not like the Syrian programme, where the Prime Minister at the time, David Cameron, said, “This is the number of people we are taking in through a humanitarian vulnerability scheme”. By the way, there is nothing wrong with vulnerability schemes—please do not think that I am saying that—but this scheme is open to everyone who is Ukrainian to come in. It is not restricted in number.

I return to the points brought up by the noble Baroness, some of which were duplicated. There is some concern about the matching process: “But what if I don’t know anybody?” I understand that and it is perfectly right, but I will give a bit of background to the matching process. When I was involved in the Syrian scheme, the model for community sponsorship was Canadian. Ironically, with politics being what it was, the day I was due to go to Canada to see it was the day I was reshuffled to the Department for Work and Pensions. Luckily, the Civil Service correctly fought back and officials went and this is very much the scheme used. The community sponsorship scheme for Syrians and others worked in small numbers but this is nothing like that. This is a way of fast-tracking it.

The reason why the scheme worked slowly is that it was a proper, boilerplate exercise. Every single detail was known about the refugee before they took off to come to this country. Everything was preplaced, not just the accommodation but employment and everything else. This is a mass-type operation. No one has come up with a better word than matching, but it does not mean that someone who has been forced to flee Ukraine will think, “I have to look on a list, but is anybody suitable?” We have been speaking extensively to NGOs in the last two or three days which will do that for them. They will have tablets, laptops and all that sort of thing to do it. It is not just one individual having to find another individual.

On the points made about safeguarding and related issues, perhaps I could combine my reply to the two questions. However, if noble Lords feel that the answers are not adequate, I would be happy to follow up by taking questions either here or elsewhere. If any noble Lord or noble Baroness would like to meet with me, I would be happy to talk them through this because we are learning as we go. A lot of the comments I have had from MPs and Members of this House have been useful in our thinking on this—particularly MPs because their constituents speak directly to them about it.

I will make a general point about local authorities, if I may, which leads into safeguarding. They are being paid £10,500 per refugee. I was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, how that was calculated. Was it done like this? For the sake of Hansard, let me say that I put my finger in the air, meaning “Was it just a wild guess?” It was done on the basis that we used for the Syrian programme. It is for all the wraparound services except education, which is done on a per capita basis. I do not have the figures to hand—well, I am sure I do in the file I have been given—but, basically, it is an amount per child depending on their age, a bit like with academies generally.

The local authority will be responsible for all the wraparound services, meaning the things that they would normally deal with. They include safeguarding issues. I will come on to DBS checks separately because they were brought up separately but, on other safeguarding issues, the eyes and ears have always been education for children, for example, as the first way of doing it. However, the question of social services, mental health services and primary care was brought up. Through its networks, the Department of Health has been in touch with GPs and other people to make sure that primary care places are available.

Turning to DBS, basically, the question is: do we have to do full DBS checks on people who will be offering sponsorship and people with accommodation? We took the decision that it has to be a two-phase thing. If we must wait for full DBS checks, it may be that we can speed them up. When I left the House of Commons, I decided to become a school governor. It took two months. I hope that it was not because I am on any naughty list, but that is the way the system works. Before allowing people into homes, we will do criminal record checks and get all the things that are easily obtainable online as part of the process before people are approved as sponsors. After that, it will be the local authority’s responsibility to do the full DBS checks. Related to that will be its duty to inspect properties as well. Obviously, this is all very new to us, so we do not really know much. I am sure that the vast majority of people mean well in offering accommodation, but we have to have the back-up system of property inspection and everything else that we would normally have.

It takes care of some of the other questions if I say that the local authorities have been extremely co-operative. I started off over the weekend talking to organisations such as the LGA and other council groups but, today, we had a call with 200 council leaders and chief executives; at least, that is what I was told, but you can only get so many people on Teams. There were a lot of them; it was a call to arms for them. My second cliché is that they have stepped up to the plate—at least, they have told us that they have stepped up to plate. In my department, particularly regarding the Syrian refugee scheme, we were used to dealing with local authorities. They were our main conduit for the resettlement of people. The only difference in this case is that the full burden of providing accommodation will not be on them.

By the way, let me add this because it answers one of the noble Baroness’s points: we have spent a lot of time with faith groups, voluntary groups and others—for example, World Jewish Relief and Church organisations—because they will, we hope, be able to facilitate a big supply of accommodation through their members and their associated people.

On the subject of unaccompanied children, I have a problem. I have been discussing it today with a group of Ukrainian MPs, and I am seeing the Ukrainian ambassador tomorrow on this subject. It is the Ukrainian Government’s position—far be it for me to criticise them; the meeting with the Ukrainian MPs was very emotional—that we need their permission before bringing children here. They do not want children removed far away because of what may happen in the future when they are settled. They want them back with their families. I am working through these things.

I am trying to make sure I have answered everything in the brief time available. Will the single parent discount disappear? I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, that it will not. This is not being treated as income for benefits, or regarding school and university fees, by HMRC or anyone else. I believe my time is up. I hope I have answered the questions. If not, I am happy to answer them either formally or informally.