Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

1. What steps his Department has taken to support businesses to create highly skilled jobs in Devon and Cornwall.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)]

Happy new year to you, Mr Speaker, and to everyone else. The two local enterprise partnerships covering the area—Cornwall and Isles of Scilly LEP, and Heart of the South West LEP, which includes Devon—are receiving £317 million through the local growth fund to drive regional development. That includes a £3 million investment in the Electronics and Photonics Innovation Centre at the White Rock business park in Paignton, which helps to support skilled jobs in a key local growth sector.

[Kevin Foster]

As my hon. Friend mentions, Torbay’s £8 million EPIC centre will open later this year, helping to boost our vital photonics industry. What further support can his Department offer to help boost Torbay’s high-tech sector?

[Richard Harrington]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on everything he does for employment in this area and in his constituency. He knows that my Department is working with Heart of the South West LEP, which is leading the development of our local industrial strategy. Torbay is actively engaged in that work. I believe the strategy will identify the particular strengths of the region and future opportunities for increased productivity, including in sectors such as photonics.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 17th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

20. What steps he is taking to support growth in the small business sector.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)]

Corporation tax rates will be cut from 19% to 17% in 2020. We have doubled the annual allowance for people investing in knowledge-intensive companies through the enterprise investment scheme, and we are investing over £26 million through Be the Business. The Government’s British Business Bank is supporting over 70,000 smaller businesses to access £4.6 billion of finance.

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[Richard Harrington]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Some people would argue that Ministers engage with the Treasury too often on many matters, but we engage with them regularly on this matter. The Chancellor has been clear that we need to find a better way to tax the digital economy. We are making progress on that before considering the implications for the wider tax system, including business rates.

[Kevin Foster]

Small businesses in Torbay could benefit significantly from a coastal enterprise zone, as part of a town deal for our area. What view does the Minister take of this type of arrangement?

[Richard Harrington]

I thank my hon. Friend for all the work he has done for Torbay businesses. I understand that the Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry), who has responsibility for local growth, recently had a positive meeting with him and representatives from Torbay to discuss their proposals for local economic growth. I encourage Torbay to continue to work with local partners as it develops its plans, including the Heart of the South West local enterprise partnership, which will play a central role in the local industrial strategy for the area.

Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Kevin Foster

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Friday 11th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Richard Harrington]

The shadow Minister makes a good sedentary comment, but I detect a note of sarcasm.

The serious point here is that consultations in which charitable bodies and other institutions make points based on their experiences are an important part of the legislative process, because that is where the detail comes in. I can assure Members on both sides of the House that this is not a can-kicking consultation or a formality. It is very important. Anyone who is interested can submit a response, and the consultation is open until 8 June, so there is not long to wait. I feel that it is necessary. Sometimes consultations are formalities, but I do not think this is one of them.

[Kevin Foster]

I am reassured by some of what I am hearing from the Minister, but can he be clear that the Government will look at the results of that consultation with a view to being clear on primary care givers, rather than parents who are purely defined by biology?

[Richard Harrington]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, as is typical. He asked me whether I can be clear, and I can be clear that that is the case.

The definition of a bereaved parent will be the same in respect of both leave and pay for the Bill. We must not forget that this involves the two minimum rights, as I call them, of the leave that can be taken and the pay that goes with it. Those are the minimum rights, and I think many companies now fully exceed that. We have been clear all along that we want to introduce a system that prescribes clearly, based on the facts, who is eligible, for the benefit of employees and employers.

In some areas of employment law, legislation has been the right course of action. Legislation has set the principle, which employment tribunals interpret for particular cases, fleshing out how it should be applied. In this case, however, we do not want claims to reach an employment tribunal to establish whether an individual counts as a bereaved parent for these purposes, and it would not be right to expect people dealing with that tragic loss to muster the energy and time to follow that course of action. That issue came up on Second Reading and in Committee, and each time it became clear that the question who should count as a bereaved parent, which on the surface seems very simple, is not easy to answer.

The consultation seeks to get that right, so that when the regulations are published—this is not a case of regulations being published so that Ministers and not Parliament take control—they are correct. The regulations must be simple, but they must also be comprehensive and include all circumstances. That is a difficult balance to get right, but we are doing our best. I agree with the spirit of the amendment, but it is not appropriate to accept any measure that will effectively pre-empt the outcome of that consultation. We must allow the process to run its course.

[Richard Harrington]

I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, and we cannot allow this to go on and on. I think that it was Mrs Thatcher who said she was going to “go on and on”, but this is not one of those cases—well, it was not in her case either, as the hon. Gentleman will know. In all seriousness, I cannot give a direct answer, not because I do not want to, but because we must see how much information there is and process it. If I say “weeks”, perhaps he will hold me to that. I know that “weeks” could mean 5,000 weeks, but that is not what I intend. I hope that will give him a rough idea, but we cannot just hold the consultation one day, have a knee-jerk response and finish it, as I hope that he understands. There is no intention to stall. I have seen the spirit of the House today, and I hope that no one will think that this is a governmental stalling mechanism—far from it.

Amendments 3, 5, 20 and 23 consider the window within which leave and pay can be taken, and amendment 22 concerns the flexibility with which leave is taken. Given that this measure will join a fleet of others related to family-related leave and pay, we must maintain consistency. That is the genesis of the eight-week window and the ability to extend that through secondary legislation. We cannot have a situation in which the enabling framework is inconsistent with frameworks for other family leave provisions, thereby adding complexity and potential confusion.

Today, we have heard the view that the current eight-week window might not be enough. I have heard that message. That is one key element explicitly considered in the current consultation, and it is legitimate to ask people other than politicians for their views on this issue. The decision that leave could be taken at a later stage, while retaining a minimum timeframe of eight weeks in the Bill, is not unreasonable. We cannot accept any of the proposed amendments without waiting for the outcome of the consultation and then making a decision in view of the responses. Hon. Members and their constituents must engage in the consultation process, because we need the evidence base on which the Government can take responsible decisions. We need as broad a base of representative evidence as possible.

[Kevin Foster]

May I clarify for my benefit and that of other Members that the idea is for eight weeks to be the minimum timeframe and that the leave can be broken? This is not about a solid two-week period.

[Richard Harrington]

That is exactly what the Government are trying to find out. It may be that that is not appropriate, but my instincts are that what my hon. Friend says is right. Bills like this are strange. The natural thing would be to have as much flexibility as possible for almost anything, because these circumstances are different—of course they are. Each is a terrible tragedy, and we have heard speeches from hon. Members across the House about their own experiences, and those of their families and constituents. Everyone is different. We do not want to have to force everything into a narrow hole.

Employers have to know where they stand, however, otherwise we are just asking them to be nice people and to behave humanely. We do say that, of course, but it is not enough. We have to provide a framework and a balance must be struck. I think that we all agree that we need to provide employers with a simple set of rules, not an over-complex set of rules. The odd time—thankfully, it is just the odd time—that such a terrible bereavement happens, we do not want employers to be rushing around looking for papers, laws and guidelines. If an employer has only three or four employees, that is very difficult to do. I am sure their answer would be, “Take whatever you need,” but we have to provide the rules. I am absolutely clear that the amount of leave and pay is a minimum entitlement, so that all families who lose a child are given the bereavement support they need. I believe it is the absolute minimum.

The Bill was never about making sure that each parent who finds themselves in this situation has all the time off they need, because grief is different for each person. Grief is never time-limited and I am sure any reasonable employer would not or could not give people enough time off to deal with their entire grief—grief will happen over the rest of their lives. The intention is to set a minimum entitlement that employers must provide and to encourage a culture of support to develop around child bereavement. I am sure many employers would take into consideration the mental health needs of parents after bereavement, or extra time to deal with other children affected. This is the minimum; it is not everything. I hope that employers do not think, “Well, that’s all we have to do. That’s enough.” It never is. I am sure all responsible employers know that.

We have to consider employers’ rights. They have to have a clear framework. They need to know, in a way that is easily understandable, the minimum the law entitles them to. This may be obvious, but most employers will never come across this situation. When it does happen to an employee in a smaller company, employers will not have experienced the situation before. They will not have a file in a human resources department to tell them what their rights are. We found a consensus among employer groups for the minimum leave period of two weeks. It is sensible to continue with that, as long as it is known that it is the minimum entitlement in the Bill. Bigger, more organised employers will develop their own enhanced bereavement policies, as big firms often have very clear policies for almost every possible contingency.

On removing the age limit for a child, I cannot imagine how difficult it is to lose a loved one. The point was made, I think by my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan), that a child is a child. My mother is 89, but I am still her child. That may be obvious, but when we think of children for the purposes of the Bill one can assume that we mean little children. As my hon. Friend said so eloquently, to lose any child is not what nature intended but unfortunately it does happen. I can well understand why amendments seeking to remove the age limit for a child have been tabled. Having a sick child is understood easily by people. The way things are changing mental health, thankfully, is spoken about more now. However, people do not come across child bereavement very often, so it can be more difficult to speak about. The numbers, however, are not insignificant.

We have tried to get the balance right between those affected and those who need to administer this provision. It provides the minimum level of entitlement, but it does not prevent employers from enhancing their policies. I do not like the idea of having to consider costs in these circumstances, but they are unavoidable. There is a cost to employers and to Government, and the broader the scope, the higher the cost, so it is important to focus on the fact that this is a framework and a floor, providing a minimum. However, in so many areas of life employers go far beyond what the law sets the minimum for. Holiday pay and sick pay are good examples, and I am absolutely certain that the bereavement pay should be too.

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[Richard Harrington]

I would like to consider my hon. Friend’s point. Perhaps I can drop him a line next week, or perhaps we can meet up and have a chat about it, because I do not want not to give a knee-jerk answer to a very complex question.

[Kevin Foster]

May I suggest that a letter with the information could be placed in the Library, given that we have discussed the issue on the Floor of the House?

[Richard Harrington]

Yes, I thank my hon. Friend very much for that suggestion. I would be very happy to do that and to correspond directly with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson). We have to focus on the fact that this is a floor, as I think I have made clear. This is really about changing the culture around bereavement in general. It is my heartfelt belief that this Bill is not the be-all and end-all but that it will be a powerful driver of that culture change.

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[Richard Harrington]

I know that my hon. Friend has personal experience in that regard, as his twins were born prematurely. I was born quite prematurely myself. Some of us look as though we were not born prematurely. My hon. Friend has made a serious point, however, and I will definitely consider it.

Amendments 9 to 11 and 15 to 17 deal with notice requirements. In this context, we have to stop and think about what the word “reasonable” means. It looks sensible in drafting and in amendments, because people think, “Well, what’s reasonable is reasonable”, but it is very subjective. It is a word that remains open to interpretation and genuinely means different things to different people. If I was challenged on the grounds of reasonableness—for example, on the length of this speech—what would the outcome be? It is a serious point with a number of scenarios and thought processes, with the usual outcome that something can be considered reasonable or unreasonable for any number of reasons when viewed from multiple perspectives.

The amendment might inadvertently make it difficult for those who seek to rely on the provision to know exactly what it means for them. We cannot create a situation in which the issue of reasonableness ends up being a sticking point between employer and employee. Then we would have questions of whether it should go to an employment tribunal or how would it be arbitrated, when that would be the last thing that anyone wanted on top of dealing with the terrible tragedy of a child’s death. It would be the worst of all outcomes and I am sure that no Member would want to see it.

I understand the aim of the amendment, however, and I sympathise with its spirit. But given that we are dealing with such a delicate issue, in which clarity is key, we should keep the text of the schedule as it is.

[Kevin Foster]

I take on board some of the points that the Minister is making, but does he accept that “reasonable” is a word that has been in the law for a long time in various circumstances? For example, Lord Denning famously talked, in the language of his time, of the man on the top of the Clapham omnibus. One of the reasons we picked the word is because it has been decided on in the courts many times.

[Richard Harrington]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point and in my brief time not as a lawyer but doing a law degree I remember the Lord Denning case, which was about being subjective about reasonableness. It was fine for Lord Denning, as the Master of the Rolls, to opine on the issue, but we have to consider a system that will not, we hope, go to an employment tribunal or a court—that is the last thing that anybody would want. Although “reasonableness” seems a fine test on the surface, this is such a delicate issue that we need to keep the text of the schedule as it is, with due respect to Lord Denning and my hon. Friend, although I agree with him about the “reasonable” test generally in English law and other systems.

As for the eligibility for pay, I look at this from my business background. Keeping the qualifying period for the pay element aligned with family leave provisions avoids questions arising at this sensitive time about who is entitled to take both parental bereavement leave and pay, because employers are already familiar with how it works. If employers are able to follow the legislation easily it will, in turn, enable them to act in a way that reduces the stress and uncertainty of the bereaved employee. ACAS has opined a lot on this subject and my officials have worked with it to establish how the Government can best support employers when an employee suffers child bereavement. Much of it will have to do with guidance and support to reflect the new provisions after Royal Assent and once the regulations have been made.

In supporting the Bill, the Government want to ensure that employees and employers are both involved in managing child bereavement, in the context of existing family leave and pay legislation. So I think it better that we leave the Bill as it stands in this respect—consistent with existing family-related pay entitlements when it comes to eligibility for statutory pay.

On amendment 18 and the liability of HMRC, the point has been covered a lot in the proceedings on the Bill, and I believe we need to ensure that protections are in place in the event an employer does not fulfil his legal obligation.

To allow time for Third Reading, I would just say that this is as good a time as any to reiterate the Government’s full support for the Bill, and my appearance as the third Minister to represent the Government is not a signal of wavering commitment. It is a signal that we are trying to get it right and treating the subject with the importance it deserves. I hope that after today’s important stages the Bill will make a swift transition for consideration in the other place, so it can proceed and receive Royal Assent at the earliest convenience.