Royal Albert Hall Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Baroness Twycross
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. In particular, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton for the debate which their amendment has generated. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Harrington, in advance. As the government-appointed trustee at the Royal Albert Hall, he has the task of bringing this matter before us today. We look forward to hearing from the noble Lord. I also thank other noble Lords, including the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, for leading the work of the Select Committee.
As somebody who has been the head of governance for a national charity, I have a geekish interest in all things to do with charity law, so I have found doing the prep work for this debate absolutely fascinating. As the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and pretty much every other noble Lord who has spoken has made clear, it is important to note that the Royal Albert Hall is an iconic building. As the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, made clear, it has hosted many national moments. It hosts some of the world’s leading artists from many different genres, as well being the home of the BBC Proms, which have been held there every summer since 1941. It truly is an iconic venue, both nationally and internationally, and one that holds a place in all our hearts. Noble Lords can be united on that point, even if there were differences of opinion on other points in the debate.
The hall is still used for a range of events. While I have never seen Jethro Tull, either in the Royal Albert Hall or elsewhere, my own experience of the Royal Albert Hall has been as diverse as seeing my niece and goddaughter play at various events for schools, which give children and young people the opportunity to play in an incredible venue, as well as attending classical concerts and watching the remarkable Cirque du Soleil.
I will make one point before coming to a rapid conclusion. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, mentioned seats being sold at inflated prices. Noble Lords will be clear that this is an issue of concern to the Government. At the moment, as part of our live event ticket resale consultation, we are consulting on a range of measures, including introducing a price cap on the resale of tickets for live events. The consultation invites views on the most suitable level for a price cap on ticket resales, ranging from the original price to an uplift of up to 30% on that price to cover admin costs.
In relation to whether this consultation could fix the perceived conflict of interest, the measure proposed in the consultation would clamp down on unfair practices in ticketing, making tickets easier to buy and cheaper on the secondary market. It is not aimed primarily at addressing wider issues relating to charitable law.
The Government recognise that a number of your Lordships tabled this amendment due to concerns about the potential conflict between the private interests of seat-holding trustees and the hall’s charitable objectives. This point was clearly made by the noble Lords, Lord Hodgson, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, my noble friend Lord Bassam, the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker, Lady Stowell of Beeston and Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale.
It is important to note the speeches against the amendment made by the noble Lords, Lord Carrington of Fulham and Lord Moynihan of Chelsea. In the Government’s view, it is regrettable that these matters relating to the conflict of interest inherent in the hall’s governance model have not been resolved prior to the introduction of this Bill. However, as the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, made clear, the Government do not generally take a position on Private Bills unless they contain measures which would contravene public policy. The same can be said of amendments to Private Bills. In our view, the Royal Albert Hall Bill does not contain any provision that contravenes public policy, and neither does this amendment. Therefore, respecting the tradition of Private Bills that come before this House, the Government will remain neutral on the amendment.
Lord Harrington of Watford (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I do not know quite what to say. I will try to keep my comments brief, because I do not want to incur the wrath of the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, telling me to keep quiet. I shall try to be as brief as I can, but this is a serious matter to me.
I am here because I am a trustee of the Royal Albert Hall. As the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, said, I was appointed to that job by DCMS. I am not a seat-holder. I have put in my registered interests that I am a trustee of the Royal Albert Hall, and am very proud to be one. When I took on that job, I was very cynical about the governance of the hall. I would like to think that I am an experienced trustee of charities—not in a professional sense, but I have been on the board of quite a few—and am fully aware of fiduciary duties and the responsibilities of a charitable trustee.
I have changed my mind about this because of my experience of what actually happens at the hall. If noble Lords will bear with me, I will explain why I have reached the conclusion that the measures which my noble friend Lord Hodgson and others have outlined in the amendment are not really necessary. I should also thank the noble Lords, Lord Carrington and Lord Moynihan of Chelsea, for speaking on behalf of the substantive Bill and opposing the amendment. For the sake of time—and the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson —I will not repeat those arguments.
I think most Members of the House are aware that the reason this Bill has come forward is not to do with governance: the aim is to regularise what is happening on an annual basis, where a significant number of seats are given by the trustees to the benefit of the hall through an arrangement on exclusives, which has been challenged, as my noble friend Lord Carrington mentioned in his speech. It has also been mentioned that there is a High Court action at the moment by three members who are trying to stop this. So the intentions of the Bill, I think it is generally agreed, are correct. It seems absurd that, in an organisation such as the Royal Albert Hall, this has to be done by an Act of Parliament, but that is because of its history and I thank noble Lords for their patience with that.
The members have the ability to sell their tickets as they wish, because they effectively own a property. For historical reasons, they own it and are entitled to do what they like with it. This is not a question of reselling tickets for profit, because I think it is mutually agreed that, as property owners, they are entitled to do this. So, first, what do they do to contribute to the charity? They pay what is known as a seat rate annually. I suppose it is akin to a service charge in a block of flats or something like that. Secondly, they forgo the right to attend many events, so their tickets are available for public sale. This is done annually by a vote, as mentioned during this debate, but it is open to legal challenge, hence we have the Bill.
The scope of the Bill does not include reform of the hall’s governance. It is a Private Bill and, basically, Private Bills have to be founded by a promoter who proves the need for this measure. This does it, and as the promoter—I have never been called a promoter in my life before, but for this purpose I am representing one—I say that we do not believe there is a need for a constitutional review, and, if there is, this is not the place to do it.
I would like to thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, for the work that her committee did. Having read it carefully, I feel that everybody was given a fair hearing and would like to put that on the record. I listened to my noble friend Lord Hodgson—I use the words correctly in this case—very carefully and I would like your Lordships to consider the amendment in three ways.
First, what merit does it claim to have? Merit is important in these things. Everyone, not least the hall’s trustees themselves, understands that there is, without any question, a conflict of interest for some of the trustees who own seats themselves. No one is in denial about that. The question is not whether they are allowed, with their private interest as a trustee, to do what they want with their own property, but whether this impinges on their duties and performance as a trustee.
My noble friend was very gracious, as was everybody else, in saying that the hall is a great national institution, but his argument was, basically, that it is a great national institution in spite of the trustees. I would say it is a great national institution because of their dedication to the cause of the charity and the financial sacrifice they are prepared to make for the benefit of charities.
Conflicts are accepted. The question is: how are those conflicts dealt with? With transparency, is the answer. Obviously, there are several trustees, including me, who are not conflicted in any way, but there is a conflicts policy and a committee to scrutinise conflicts that is made up of non-conflicting trustees, which I am part of. There is no denial that there are conflicts, but they are dealt with effectively by a committee of independent trustees, and it works in practice. I have seen no examples of abuse. I have never been asked about this by my noble friend or by anybody else and I have never been given specific cases—other than the fact that some trustees are able to sell their tickets—or told that they have done anything to skew their decisions as a trustee in their own personal favour. If, for example, I had heard trustees lobby to keep their tickets for the most expensive concerts and not put them in for the common good, that would be clearly incorrect. I state on the record that I have experienced no possible example of that. I would say so if I had.
Secondly, does a Bill such as this, as drafted, achieve its intended purpose? The answer becomes quite technical. The amendment is founded on the belief that a resolution by the hall’s members to award the exclusives to the hall amounts to them doing something for themselves. Noble Lords have argued that Clause 4 will allow members and trustees to manipulate for their own benefit, but the hall does not award anything to the members; the members would give tickets over for charitable benefits. They cannot sell them through the ticket return scheme, as these are not resale tickets—they own them.
Finally, what impact will this amendment have if it is passed? I would argue that, if it is passed, and if the hall does not continue with the Bill, the hall will be between a rock and a hard place and in difficulty either way. At the moment, all seat-holders give up about 25% of their tickets, which they will not have to. The chief executive has calculated that the benefit of that to the hall is about £1.5 million per year. That makes a material difference to the quality of the events, the programme, and everything that can be put on, because the promoters of those events want, as has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan of Chelsea, them to be available for the common good, and they need all 5,000 tickets.
All we are really doing in the Bill is ensuring that what is currently done is put into a legal capacity, so that it cannot be challenged by members. I would sum it up with the cliché: if it ain’t broke, don’t mend it. You could use that argument for this House—if you started with a blank sheet of paper, it would probably not be designed quite in the way it is today. I am sure it would be the same if Prince Albert was able to say in those days that the Government had the money to build such a wonderful institution, but they did not, and so the hall has evolved. The hall is an extremely successful institution and it seems to work very well— I say that as an independent trustee. The conflicts are open and they are dealt with.
I do not support this amendment. I oppose it somewhat reluctantly because of my respect for my noble friend Lord Hodgson and others. It is incorrect for this Bill, which is a narrow Bill, and I implore Members not to vote for the amendment on this occasion.