Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain]

I was going to make exactly the point that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has just made with far more authority. The European Union negotiates as a bloc and the Brexiteers want to break free of that, for their own reasons.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I would love to vote for this amendment if I thought it would achieve what the noble Lord, the Irish people and indeed all of us want. Unfortunately, it outlaws agreements between the UK and the European Union only in the circumstances narrated. My belief is that if this happens, it will not be as a result of any agreement between the EU and the UK but because there is no agreement between the EU and the UK. This is possibly my blindness, but I do not see how this goes anywhere towards preventing the evil that all of us—I cannot speak for anyone but myself, strictly speaking, but certainly most of us, judging from what I have heard—want to avoid. We want a soft border whatever happens between Northern Ireland and the Republic. I am sure that people in the Republic want that and the Northern Irish people want that—and certainly I and all who love them want that.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to briefly support my noble friend Lord Darling and, indeed, endorse the point made by the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor. It arises, in a way, out of a question that he put to me when I was giving evidence to the Constitution Committee. It is this: we have allowed tax devolution to leave the station without any clear idea of what the destination is.

I am an enthusiastic devolutionist. As Secretary of State for Wales, I brought in the Government of Wales Act 2006, and I was instrumental in helping to win the 1997 Welsh referendum—albeit very narrowly; it was a hard fight. My concern is one that I do not see being addressed in the Bill, certainly not until we have the fiscal framework, at least, before us to scrutinise. It is this: 40% of the wealth of the United Kingdom is generated in London and the south-east. So what happens if parts of the UK—across the UK, not just in Wales and Scotland but in the north-east of England, Cornwall, and other parts of England that are not as wealthy as the south-east and London—are offloaded from the ability to benefit from redistribution, and the fairness involved in that redistribution?

The Government’s present ideology seems to be, “You have the powers to raise your own taxes, and it’s on your heads”. And if that particular part of the UK, be it Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland, cannot raise what it previously raised, that is tough. I do not think that is a future for the United Kingdom that will command the support of all the nations and citizens of Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore, although I cannot support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I want to leave on the record a severe reservation about where this is all leading.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to say a word or two about the fiscal framework, which I agree is fundamental. The difficulty of it cannot be underestimated. This is a situation in which an authority has a grant-making power, and a power to raise taxes in order to raise the money for that grant—but at the same time, it is making a grant to a body that has a power to raise taxes itself. We have had this problem in the United Kingdom for a long time in relation to local authorities. Nobody needs to be told that every year local authorities have difficulty in accepting what central Government allocate to them. The Scottish Government have had that problem too, with refusing to allow local authorities to use their tax-raising powers under the community charge.

This is a very difficult situation, and I am not at all confident that it is possible to arrange things in a way that will work for all time in this fiscal framework. There is an element of prophecy involved, as we can see from what has been said about the need to take account of how the Scottish population is ageing; of course I am very much part of that factor myself, and I am very conscious of it. The important thing is that there are various powers, and it is difficult to see that they could be effectively regulated for all time coming. I know of no country in the world that has a very satisfactory arrangement for local government. Germany, for example, has inter-state relationships, and relationships between the states and the federation. The United States has problems of that kind too. We have before us the same sort of problem, in a different context. This is a very difficult thing to do—and I do not believe that the powers can be granted without knowledge of what that power arrangement is going to be, if it is possible to reach it.

On the other hand, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, said, it would be a mistake for us to use the power of this House to get the Bill in place before the deadline for the parliamentary elections in Scotland. If we were to do that, I think it would be regarded as something that the House of Lords had done to destroy the vow.