Religious Intolerance and Prejudice

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 17th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

One might say, “To a degree, Lord Copper”. I will not defend his use of language but I think the noble Lord would agree that the structural issue in the leadership of the Labour Party is different from that. I accept that there are issues that need addressing. They are being investigated in the party and I hope an appropriate conclusion will be reached.

If I may move on, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, spoke about Holocaust denial, which is important, and important too in the context of genocide denial. My noble friend Lord Cormack spoke about the need for balance. I agree with that and about the importance of freedom of speech, and with much of what the most reverend Primate said about it, except that freedom of speech cannot exist in a vacuum. Nobody has the right to go into a crowded theatre and cry “Fire!” during a performance. That would be freedom of speech but there are laws to protect against it and I am sure that neither Voltaire nor Stephen Hawking would disagree with that. This has to be in the context that many people who fear greatly for the future of this country and their position in it are protected against some of the things happening in our country at the moment.

I too applaud the Church of England for adopting the definition of anti-Semitism, as many other institutions have done—our Government were the first in the world to do so. On Islamophobia, I applaud once again the work done by my noble friend Lady Warsi—Yorkshirewoman of the year, as announced by our Yorkshireman, my noble friend Lord Pickles. I seem to have had a rather Yorkshire day today, with a question on Yorkshire too. The noble Baroness is formidable and I am pleased about the work that the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Islamophobia has been doing on the definition. As I think she knows, I have refreshed the membership of what is currently the Anti-Muslim Hatred Working Group—a bit of a mouthful. It has a strong membership, well led by Akeela Ahmed. It will be looking at the definition of Islamophobia and, as it is revamped with new life injected into it, a proper budget and proper work schedule, it will be looking at different aspects of Islamophobia and how we can help in that regard.

That should not, however, be at the expense of neglecting other communities. We meet representatives of the Sikh community regularly, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Singh, would acknowledge. I accept that they too are subject to attacks and prejudice, and that must not be forgotten.

[Lord Hain]

The Minister shot into the open goal that the Labour Party has provided on anti-Semitism. Will he also comment on Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, given that he spent some minutes on Labour?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord will be aware that I did comment on that. I said that we are investigating the issue relating to Boris Johnson and looking at issues raised to do with members. Some members have been suspended and some have been removed. That is not to say there is no issue to confront—I have not ducked that on any occasion. However, the noble Lord is always fair, and I think he will accept that it is different in nature. What is happening in the Labour Party involves the leadership. I do not seek to draw division here, where there is unity on the basic themes of the debate.

Northern Ireland Political Situation

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind words of welcome. I am indeed optimistic, but then it could perhaps be pointed out that I am new to the job so I do not know whether that is just an occupational hazard.

Discussions are going forward involving all three strands of the Belfast agreement. Discussions have been undertaken between the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach and between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Foreign Minister of Ireland, and it is appropriate that they should as provided for in the Belfast agreement. As I say, we are entering a crucial stage. It is important that we look forward rather than back. I have a lot to learn but I think looking forward is probably a good idea in Northern Ireland, and I think it is what people are focused on.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, when exactly was the involvement of the Prime Minister, as he said, negative? I would like to know. The default position for anyone who has done the job is to support the Secretary of State regardless of party. However, I really feel that the Government have lost the plot, and have done so now for a period. My noble friend Lord Murphy was the first to say some six months ago that it was necessary to convene a summit of the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach to resolve the problem, but that did not happen. Deadlines have been set and passed with equanimity with no downside for any of the parties concerned. In addition, there is a massive democratic deficit in Northern Ireland now at a time when Brexit requires Northern Ireland’s voice to be heard, as Wales’s and Scotland’s voices are being heard through their Governments more than ever before.

Lastly, I want to ask about the donations Bill. Does the Minister accept that there is real concern that it will hit one side of the community, particularly the nationalist parties? I do not think that legislation is helpful at a time when the Government already stand accused of being partisan and dependent on their deal with one party in Northern Ireland to keep the Prime Minister afloat.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. He comes with past experience of the job. He will know that deadlines have been set in the past; this is nothing new. I fully agree with what he says about the democratic deficit. It was inherent in the Statement that we need a power-sharing Executive because of budgetary issues and involvement in issues such as Brexit as well as many others. I do not disagree with him on that at all. All I can say is that work is progressing and there is a narrowing of the disagreements, so there is the prospect of a deal.

On the question of the donations legislation, obviously there will be a chance to discuss this when it is presented to Parliament but I would say that it has been welcomed by the opposition Front Benches both in the House of Commons and here. There will be a chance to scrutinise it as it goes through both Houses.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I indicated on the latter point that I certainly intended that we would publish, in some form, the findings of the group on this matter. Yes, I will reflect on what has been said and say more on Third Reading, when we will be further forward in discussions, to provide extra reassurance. I come back to the point that obviously we want to move by consensus in talking with the Welsh Government and, more broadly, with the National Assembly for Wales. Again, I remind noble Lords that the LCM is a requirement before we can move to Third Reading, so the membership of the National Assembly has to be happy with what is proposed—otherwise, presumably, no LCM will be forthcoming.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise for not being here for the whole debate. The Minister mentioned the fiscal framework in the context of the LCM. I would be grateful if there were a prospect of that being published soon, as he kindly indicated to me, so that the House will have a chance to look at it before considering any amendments to be tabled for 10 January.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hain]

My Lords, following that very interesting contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, perhaps I may ask the Minister to explain exactly how all the other issues to do with Milford Haven port are devolved to the Welsh Government. Economic development—which is crucial in the area—environmental questions, safety issues and matters relating to the sea are all devolved, yet, uniquely, Milford Haven port is excluded. If the sole reason for that is the energy question—one can understand the strategic importance of the LNG capacity there—surely the vehicle to address that might be a protocol. Since the Minister has wheeled out the protocol—I do not mean that pejoratively—in a way that is meant to satisfy the legitimate demands for control over water within Wales, why could that not be the vehicle for addressing the strategic energy question, while ensuring that the Welsh Government have full control over Milford Haven as they have over all other ports?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments. Obviously, the Government have some amendments in this group as well, which I will move in due course.

Amendments 14 to 26 and Amendments 86 to 89 are opposition amendments. We debated amendments that were very similar to Amendments 14 to 26 and Amendments 86 to 89, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, in Committee on 7 November. The amendments would remove the reservation of reserved trust ports from the Bill and so transfer functions to the Welsh Ministers and devolve legislative competence for these ports to the Assembly in the same way as the Bill does for other ports wholly within Wales.

During that debate, in light of our discussion and the points raised by noble Lords, I undertook to take another look at the reservation of reserved trust ports without prejudice—that is, not saying that I would come along with revised proposals. I am now convinced of the strategic case for excluding Milford Haven and will seek to explain why.

Trust ports have unique governance arrangements. They are run by independent statutory bodies whose role is to manage, maintain and improve a harbour. Trust ports operate on a commercial basis, generally without financial support from government. Harbour authorities for trust ports have no shareholders but are accountable to, and run for the benefit of, their stakeholders, who include port users, local communities and local economies as well as local government and national Governments. Any profits are reinvested by the harbour authority in the port for the benefit of those stakeholders. Indeed, it is the duty of a trust port board to hand on the harbour to succeeding generations in the same or better condition. There are five trust ports in Wales, at Caernarfon, Milford Haven, Neath, Newport and Saundersfoot.

In light of the unique governance arrangements that I have just outlined, the Government believe that trust ports that have a nationally significant role in Wales should continue to be accountable to UK Ministers, which is what the reservation of reserved trust ports in the Bill achieves. During our debate on 7 November, all noble Lords who participated were in agreement about the importance of the port of Milford Haven. The significant volume of liquid bulk cargo—that is, oil and oil products, and liquefied natural gas—passing through the port each year is a clear testament to that. The oil refinery and fuel storage facilities at Milford Haven, which are dependent on the port, play an important national role in securing supplies of road and aviation fuel in Wales and England.

Perhaps I may at this stage take issue with something that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, stated in relation to the Murco refinery. I am in a position to say something from direct experience because I was chair of the Haven Waterway Enterprise Zone when the Murco refinery was threatened with closure, which sadly came to pass. The two Governments, the Government in Wales and the Government at Westminster, worked closely and amicably in relation to this; there was no disagreement. As chair of the enterprise zone, I had frequent discussion with the Department of Energy and Climate Change, as it was at the time, and the Minister there. There were also discussions with the relevant Welsh Minister. It was all perfectly amicable. So on matters relating to Milford Haven, I would not want noble Lords to think that the two Governments are always at loggerheads on these issues; that was certainly not the case in relation to the Murco refinery and on other issues that came up while I was chairman there over a period of some two years.

It is because of the importance of the oil refinery and fuel storage facilities at Milford Haven, dependent on the port, that we take the view that it is of strategic significance. The turnover threshold in Clause 32, referred to by the noble Baroness, is used to determine which trust ports in Wales are reserved trust ports and is based on a turnover threshold in the Ports Act 1991. Although the context is different, it seemed to be a suitable test for determining which trust ports in Wales are nationally significant and so should be reserved.

I accept—I note the spirit of contributions made by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others—that Welsh Ministers will remain a very important stakeholder for Milford Haven given their devolved responsibilities for other matters, such as for economic development, surface transport and marine licensing. I say once again that it is wrong to anticipate that every time a serious issue arises the two Governments will not work together. I refer noble Lords by way of example to the situation in relation to foot and mouth. That would no doubt be the case if there was some national emergency involving both Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. The two Governments would work successfully together again where there was a need for it.

[Lord Hain]

In that case, if the Minister is saying that the two Governments would work together anyway in the common interest of both Wales and the rest of the UK, why would that not apply also in the case of the strategic energy question?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, if I have understood the point correctly, this is in the context of our firm belief that the port is of strategic UK significance but that there are occasions when it is absolutely right that the Welsh Government need to be involved. They are a significant stakeholder in the port at the moment and—again, I can speak from experience of chairing the enterprise zone—are involved very much in issues there. It is not that the two Governments were at loggerheads; that is far from the case. It seems that we always anticipate that the two legislatures and the two sets of Ministers will always be at each others’ throats; that is far from the case. These two mature institutions very often—indeed, most often—work very successfully together. That is the point I am seeking to make.

[Lord Hain]

My Lords—

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

May I just develop this point? I remind noble Lords that the rule on Report is that they should speak only once—but I will give way since I am sure that it is a relevant contribution. I shall write to noble Lords on issues that have been discussed to explain how the relationship with the Welsh Government works, the matters they are involved in and, perhaps, how we can move that forward to ensure that we have harmonious relationships.

[Lord Hain]

I am grateful. Incidentally, that was an intervention, not another speech. If the Welsh Government and the UK Government will not be at loggerheads on things, why would the Welsh Government be at logger- heads with the UK Government on the supply of LNG, which is just as important to Wales, proportionately, as it is to the rest of the UK? I do not understand the logic of the Minister’s point.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, we could disagree on this issue until the cows come home but the basic point, which I think the noble Lord would accept, is that some matters are rightly retained as reserved matters for the United Kingdom Government while other matters are appropriate for the Welsh Government. It is our belief that the significance of this port in UK terms means that this should be a reserved port and not a devolved port. We disagree on that, but that is the basis on which we are moving forward, recognising that the Welsh Government have a role to play in relation to Milford Haven—a role that they fulfil at the moment. As I say, I will endeavour to ensure that I write to noble Lords to explain how that relationship is working at the moment.

In our debate on 7 November, some noble Lords questioned the matter of the devolution of strategic ports in relation to Aberdeen, which has been cited, quite appropriately, I acknowledge, in relation to Scotland. That was, of course, a devolution arrangement that was put in place in 1998. The Government’s thinking has developed since then and the Wales Bill includes the important concept of reserving to the United Kingdom Government trust ports that are nationally significant. I repeat to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others that that is the reason we seek to retain Milford Haven as a reserved port.

Government Amendments 27 to 35 are concerned with reciprocal requirements for the consent of the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers imposed by Sections 42C and 42D of the Harbours Act 1964. These requirements relate to harbour orders and schemes made under that Act which amend existing harbour orders and schemes made by the Secretary of State or the Welsh Ministers. The amendments are needed because the consent requirements are not consistent with the new devolution settlement for harbours in Wales set out in the Bill.

The amendments remove the reciprocal consent requirements. The transfer of harbour functions to the Welsh Ministers in the Bill will mean that the Welsh Ministers, not the Secretary of State, will exercise these harbour order and scheme-making functions for all harbours wholly in Wales, apart from reserved trust ports, which I shall refer to as “devolved harbours”. This would cover issues such as improvements to harbour facilities in relation to devolved harbours. The Secretary of State or his delegate could make such orders or schemes relating to devolved harbours only in very limited circumstances. In all such cases, the Secretary of State or his delegate will have a duty to consult the Welsh Ministers before making such a scheme or order, including under new provisions in the amendments.

Also, it would be unduly restrictive if Welsh Ministers were required to obtain consent from the Secretary of State when making, for example, a harbour revision order for a devolved harbour that alters the effect of a harbour revision order made for the harbour by the Secretary of State before the new devolution settlement. Other amendments in the group contain consequential amendments applying to Clause 36—provisions supplementary to Clauses 34 and 35—covering the Secretary of State’s new consultation obligation introduced by the amendments.

Lastly, Amendment 31 removes wording from Clause 36(1) which carries an exception from the duties to consult where consultation is not reasonably practicable. This amendment has been requested by Welsh Ministers.

Government Amendments 54 and 110 to 114 fulfil a commitment I gave in Committee to examine further the fisheries management functions being transferred to Welsh Ministers to regulate fishing vessels outside the Welsh zone. Amendment 54 introduces a new clause that transfers additional fisheries management functions to Welsh Ministers. The functions replicate, to a large extent, those already exercisable in the Welsh zone which were transferred under the Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer of Functions) Order 2010. The effect of the amendments is that Welsh Ministers will have available to them the functions they require to manage Welsh vessels wherever they are. They also preserve the United Kingdom Government’s requirement to retain a symmetry between the concurrent functions available to the Secretary of State in relation to Scottish and Welsh fishing vessels operating outside their respective zones. Welsh Government officials worked with their colleagues in the Wales Office and in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to recommend these amendments, which we are pleased to present.

Finally in this group, Amendment 55 requires the Secretary of State to consult Welsh Ministers while setting strategic priorities in relation to the Secretary of State’s delivery, in Wales, of functions under two pieces of primary legislation: the Coastguard Act 1925 and the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. In practice, each of these functions is carried out by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, an executive agency of the Department for Transport. While day-to-day operational and incident response decisions are, quite properly, the responsibility of the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, the Secretary of State is responsible for setting its strategic priorities. Areas covered include the 24-hour search and rescue helicopter service provided by the coastguard and the promotion of seafarer health and safety standards.

Noble Lords will be aware that statutory provision has been made for consultation between the Scottish Government and the Secretary of State in the Scotland Act 2016, and in Committee I agreed to reflect on the case for making similar provision for Wales, in line with the amendments brought forward in Committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and by the Smith commission in respect of Scotland. I am pleased to say that we can make such provision, and this amendment is the result. I commend the government amendments in this group and urge noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 23rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, much as I have the greatest respect for the noble Lord, that is not a tenable argument in law, as I am sure he knows. I take the point about the political dimension, as he knows, but on the legal aspect, the two bodies operate in just the same way. However, as I say, I will write to noble Lords on that. I understand the arguments being put forward, by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, in particular, as well as his point about the evolving devolution process, which makes this type of arrangement sensible where there is reciprocity. I will write to noble Lords on that point.

Amendments 120 and 120A were spoken to effectively by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, who took us through some of the financial aspects that have to be considered. I understand that. First, on something I have stated many times, although I will certainly state it again, we will not move to Third Reading—as I said at Second Reading—until there is a legislative consent Motion. So, if there is no legislative consent Motion—and there may not be; that is an issue for the National Assembly for Wales and the Ministers of the Welsh Government—we will have no Third Reading.

In relation to Report, I understand from discussions with officials—this may well be confirmed by Members of the Opposition Front Bench, who obviously have had discussions with Welsh Ministers—that there is a desire for us to move to Report so that we are closer to the sort of Bill that we will see at the end and so that the Welsh Government can then move to the legislative consent Motion, content that we are moving in an appropriate way. So we are keeping in touch on that, but I understand that there is a consensual element here to having Report, the first date of which is already public and will take place before Christmas.

We will have two days on Report to reflect on many of the important issues we have dealt with, and the second day will be soon after we come back in the new year. As I understand it—the noble Baroness pressed me on this issue—we are hoping for a legislative consent Motion in the middle of January before moving to Third Reading shortly after that. That is the suggested choreography, but of course we are in the hands of the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales in relation to the legislative consent Motion. I cannot be definitive about that but I can be definitive, as I think I have been in the past, that we will not move to Third Reading until we have the legislative consent Motion. I should also say that there is pressure elsewhere in the legislative programme, as I am sure noble Lords will accept.

[Lord Hain]

Just briefly, given what the Minister has just said, does that mean that the fiscal framework will not be available to be scrutinised before the Assembly has given its legislative consent Motion? In other words, if he is promising it only by Third Reading, is he saying that the legislative consent Motion would have to be passed by the Assembly without the fiscal framework being agreed—or, indeed, without both Houses having had a look at it?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord raises a point about my stating that we would not proceed until Third Reading. That is a restatement of what I said at Second Reading—I checked that before coming to the House. As I have indicated, the precise timing of the legislative consent Motion is not dependent on me, the Government, the House of Lords or on the House of Commons but on agreement between the Treasury and Welsh Government Ministers and then the agreement of the National Assembly for Wales.

On the fiscal framework document, the noble Lord will know that the Bill has already been through the other place and will go back there for consideration of government amendments—we have many government amendments that are measures that we all agree upon. But I am not sure that in any event that would give the opportunity for consideration of the fiscal framework as it will be only Commons consideration of Lords amendments: so they will only be able to consider any amendments we make on Third Reading.

I will endeavour through representations to see what additional information we can give on the discussions. Another meeting is due on 1 December, and from what we can gather, discussions are going well—I have heard this from both the Welsh Government side and our own Treasury side. I will endeavour to give an update as to where we are on 1 December. If we are able to give additional information, I will be happy to do that—but to some extent that will depend on the consent of the Welsh Government as well as our own Government. I do not foresee any problem on that, but obviously that is for them to determine. The date of the legislative consent Motion is dependent not just upon having the fiscal framework agreed, as I understand it; it then has to be considered by the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee of the National Assembly—I can see that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, is indicating agreement to that.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who participated in the debate on this part of the Bill concerning employment law. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for his very kind words in opening the debate.

To put this in perspective, I think it is common ground between the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I that employment and industrial relations law is a reserved area. I am not sure that that view is shared by the noble Baroness. She seemed to be suggesting that somehow our reservation meant the end of civilisation as we knew it. It is fundamental to the country that we live in. The UK Government believe that the underlying legislative framework concerning rights and responsibilities in the workplace must be reserved. I believe as much as anyone does in good employment practice. I worked in the public sector in Wales before I went into the Assembly. I was a member of a trade union. I do not think I can still be a member of that trade union or I would be. It is imperative that we have good employment law and good industrial relations. I would not contest this. This is a very important area, but we want a simple, unified system in Great Britain. As the noble Lord acknowledged, this is not something that is devolved to Scotland. It was not considered by the Smith commission or the Silk commission and it was not part of the St David’s Day process.

The system we have allows workers to be clear on their rights, whether they are in the public sector or the private sector, in England or in Wales. This is a fundamental principle and I cannot accept that the law underpinning the terms and conditions of public sector workers should be different from the law that underpins the rights of other workers. Whether that leads to better rights, more rights or worse rights, it seems fundamentally wrong. It is important to have common minimum standards which apply to all workers throughout Great Britain to minimise uncertainty and cost for both workers and employers. This is a matter of employment law; it is not about public service delivery.

Furthermore, it seems clear to me that if public sector employers in Wales, which would include the Welsh Government and public sector authorities, want to grant more favourable wages or more holidays then they are able to do so. They can do that presently and there is no question of it being taken back. Also, the judgment on the agricultural wages Act in the Supreme Court is an exception to the reservation. There is no question of that being clawed back as that specific piece of law remains.

If we had a diversified system of rights, workers might be reluctant to pursue the best progression opportunities in their organisation because they could get better rights in the private sector or the public sector—one or the other. They may find it more difficult to undertake collective bargaining and make their voice heard in isolation from colleagues in similar roles in Wales or the rest of Britain. I certainly believe in having strong industrial rights and strong employment rights—and obligations, too—but this has to be unified. As I said, both the Silk and Smith commissions came down in favour of a single employment regime, such as this, and there is nothing to prevent the Welsh Government or devolved public authorities agreeing specific arrangements with their staff, provided that they meet the requirements of employment and industrial relations legislation which apply across Great Britain.

The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, suggested that this amendment did not concern strikes. I am sure that I heard the noble Lord, Lord Hain, say that it related to altering the threshold, so it is about strikes and, as drafted, would certainly include the possibility of doing that. The Government could not sign up to that, nor to different rights on check-off or facility time. The rights should by all means be generous, but they should be unified across the country. I do not see that insisting on this is somehow apocalyptic in the way that some noble Lords suggested. The reservation of employment law ensures that there is a minimum floor of rights to offer workers key protections. At the same time, it recognises that each workplace is unique by allowing employers to provide additional pay or holidays in the public or private sector, if they want to do so.

Amendment 74 was put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for the Liberal Democrats, and I have added my name to it for the Government. I am not sure whether that makes it an additional government amendment, but we are in agreement with removing the reservation relating to teachers’ pay. This has been a key priority for the Welsh Government and we are very happy to support this amendment. We have been listening on teachers’ pay and are content to support the noble Baroness’s amendment.

In relation to employment law, because we see specific difficulties regarding different rights in the public sector, some of which relate to the calling of strikes but do not affect pay and holidays—which the public sector can negotiate quite separately, as it does now—I urge the noble Lord, Lord Hain, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hain]

My Lords, can I express my severe disappointment at the change of tone in the Minister’s delivery? The rest of his responses to the amendments moved by my noble friends have been genuinely positive. He has conceded where he could and stood his ground where he could, but within the framework of the devolution settlement in which he believes, as I do. On this amendment, I do not mean to sound insulting, but the way that he came across was, I felt, like he was reading out a prepared text—no doubt supplied by the Wales Office in Whitehall—that simply does not recognise the reality of this amendment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finn, said along with the Minister that there would be the creation of a two-tier system of employment rights. How is that possible, when the 17 Acts and regulations which are already listed as reserved matters on pages 68 and 69 of the Bill would remain reserved under the terms of this amendment? How is it possible that we would create a two-tier system of employment rights when all the employment rights would remain reserved? We are discussing the operation of industrial relations practice in Welsh public services, not in the Welsh private sector. There is no exception provided for the Welsh private sector, which is the largest area of employment in Wales. The amendment is simply about devolved public services and reserved matters and many others matters covering all the issues. I can read them out to remind the Minister, but they are there.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The amendment would insert:

“Terms and conditions of employment and industrial relations in Welsh public authorities and services”,

so the amendment is not just about industrial relations.

“Terms and conditions of employment”,

is also contained in the amendment.

[Lord Hain]

I understand that. I understand my own amendment. It refers to public services.

The Minister is saying that there should be common standards. Wales already has entirely differently configured public services. That is the beauty of devolution. There is a learning experience between the different constituent parts of the United Kingdom about where best practice occurs. In some areas, it is in Wales. We have not had a doctors’ strike. I do not think we have had the same teachers’ disputes. We have not had the same local government disputes. We have not had the same firefighter disputes. Why is that? It is because these are devolved public areas run in a different way in Wales, with a different system of employee/employer relations provided for—we believed until this Bill tried to overturn the provisions of the Supreme Court ruling—in the devolution settlement. I echo the great eloquence and legal authority of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, in saying that this is massive diminution—to use his phrase—of the authority of Wales. Indeed, it is a direct challenge to the Supreme Court, where it may well end up. As my noble friend Lord Murphy said, I do not think that is where the Minister wants to be in his private view of the future, even if that is where he is going to end up if he sticks to this stance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, underlined that the Supreme Court caught the UK Government by surprise. She was very frank about that. It perhaps even caught me by surprise by interpreting the devolution settlement in the way that it did in a very convincing way. I hope that the Minister recognises that he is now seeking to undermine that.

I remind the House of what my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely said; she said that the terms of the Bill will prevent Welsh Government Ministers exercising their legitimate functions in public services in how they treat their employees and how they operate their industrial relations from training time to facility time to all the matters that are essential to running public services in Wales effectively.

My legal advice is that the Minister’s position is flawed. He may deploy government lawyers to contest that, and then we will see in the courts. We will have the Wales TUC and the Welsh Government and, I suspect, all the people of Wales right behind them challenging the UK Government’s position.

The question I shall conclude on is: are public services in Wales devolved or not—not just the policies, but the delivery, which depends on employees and the relationships between employees in the public sector and their managers being very good? That requires good industrial relations, and Wales has been able to achieve that. Wales would continue to be able to achieve it under the devolution settlement if this amendment were accepted.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for bringing the matter forward and, indeed, for admitting to a degree of “mea culpa” on earlier provisions.

The amendments would prevent individuals not resident in Wales, and not recorded as such on the electoral register, being Members of the National Assembly for Wales. As the Government committed to in the St David’s Day agreement, the Bill devolves powers over its own elections to the National Assembly for Wales. This includes the eligibility to stand as a candidate at such an election and the criteria under which a candidate may be disqualified from being an Assembly Member. These would be matters for Wales and the National Assembly for Wales. There is a slight irony in the fact that earlier we debated what “not normally” covers, yet here are seeking to legislate in areas that will now be presented to the National Assembly for discussion and decision. It is absolutely right that this area relating to electoral practice should be a matter for the National Assembly for Wales. I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Hain—and I have had lawyers look at this—that these matters will be transferred to the National Assembly for Wales and it is right that it considers them.

Very good points have been made by noble Lords in relation to the arguments. The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, spoke about the residency requirement for those who may live just over the border at Knighton—close to the station perhaps, which is in England—rather than in the town of Knighton, and so on. They are issues that the Assembly will want to look at, just as it will no doubt want to look at the point made by my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth on the choice for electors. I speak as somebody who as an Assembly Member was determined to live in the area I represented; certainly, it was true then that everybody who was in the National Assembly for Wales lived in Wales. These are valid points for the Assembly to look at; they are not matters that we should pontificate on. With respect, I therefore ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Hain]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I will briefly respond to his points at the end of my remarks.

When I moved this rather innocent, inconspicuous amendment, I had no idea that it would provoke such a rich debate about political principles, political theory and the nature of democracy; it has been very instructive and valuable indeed. My noble friend Lord Murphy really came to the nub of the matter when he said that this was about a country’s parliamentary legislature. This is something very precious to Wales and which needs to be given proper respect. That, in a way, links to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, which she expressed very eloquently indeed. She said that Assembly Members should—by living in Wales, in this case—be subject themselves to the laws that they are passing and subject themselves to the policies that they are instrumental in enacting.

The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, made a number of interesting points, but at one point he was almost saying that there should be no restrictions at all on candidature, or at least on Assembly Members. The main gist of his argument was about candidates, and I anticipated that, with my noble friend Lord Murphy, with our Amendment 21, as did the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, with his amendment. I do not think that this is the same issue as that about Members of Parliament, because the constituency boundaries are not being changed by the change in the parliamentary constituencies at all. Of course, the parliamentary constituencies do not cross the border of Wales. The new legislation, if eventually enacted, does not do that either.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, about his amendment. Frankly, I could not have done as effective a job as MP for Neath as I hope that I did without living in the constituency. That means living and breathing the life of the local rugby clubs, the local businesses and the local schools and hospitals, as I did for nearly a quarter of a century. He made a series of fair points in relation to pressing his amendment, by which I am rather persuaded. We can happily concede that. He asked about the Neath by-election. I had actually bought a house in the constituency five months before that by-election, although I must admit that I had a crazy mortgage, in retrospect. That was an important principle that I, like the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, felt was right.

The noble Lord, Lord Norton, raised some very interesting points, but he seemed to offer no restrictions on where one must live in order to stand for, or be a Member of, the Assembly. You could be living anywhere—hundreds of miles away from Wales. I simply do not think that that is acceptable. My noble friend Lord Murphy made the point that, in practice, Welsh voters do not have a real choice about the particular Assembly Members they get through the regional lists, and I do not think that he addressed that point. It is, as my noble friend Lord Murphy said, a question of voting for the party.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a debate of rare quality. As has been said, we have had contributions from five former Secretaries of State—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, and the noble Lords, Lord Crickhowell, Lord Hain, Lord Hunt and Lord Murphy—all, obviously, with vast experience of this area. We have also had a contribution of rare quality as a maiden speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield. It was truly excellent and I am sure we all look forward to many contributions from her in the future, not only on Wales but focusing very much on it. We have also benefited greatly from the contributions of former Assembly Members, party leaders and former Ministers, from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to the noble Lords, Lord Wigley, Lord Howarth and Lord Elis-Thomas, who also brought their great experience to bear.

I will try to deal with key points that have been made during the course of the debate. Obviously I look forward to engaging in Committee and thereafter on some of the detail. There is a genuine feeling that we want to move forward in a consensual way, as far as possible, and obviously many areas of the Bill have been welcomed pretty much universally—not least in the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, on some of the internal workings, elections and so on, which we both agree should have been matters for the Assembly from a much earlier date—probably well preceding 2014.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, for her kind words in opening. We go back a long way together on devolution matters and I know that she is now adding her wisdom to the counsels of the Assembly. I thank her for what she said and look forward to engaging on some of the issues that she quite fairly set out.

Let me look at some of the key ones. First, on taxation, I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hain, that there is no neoliberal assault on the part of the Government. This is a pragmatic approach to an issue that it is high time that the Welsh Assembly—who knows, henceforward perhaps the Welsh Parliament—were able to deal with. It is appropriate that a body of such maturity has the tax powers we are talking about.

It is not, of course, a wholesale tax package. Listening to one or two noble Lords, it sounded as if we were devolving the whole of income tax powers to Wales. That is not the case. We are devolving 10p and there is an ability for the Government of Wales—which is currently the Labour Party, with a Liberal Democrat Minister—to set that at current rates. There is no obligation to vary it. They have to set a rate but they are quite at liberty to set it at the existing rate if that is what they want to do. We have taken away the condition that they are obliged to vary all the rates together. The lock-step has gone, which means that they can be varied quite separately.

That is appropriate now, devolution having come so far. It is nearly 20 years since there was the issue of whether a separate question being put in Scotland should be put in Wales, and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge. We would not be doing Wales any great service by holding things back and saying that there has got to be a referendum on the issue. There is no assault on the state. Listening to the present Prime Minister, it is quite clear that she realises that the state has a powerful role to play. That seems to strike a chord with the electorate because that is where the electorate is, too. That is important. I disagree on this issue with my noble friend Lady Finn. It is appropriate that we move forward on this without greater delay because, in my view, it would hold back Wales.

Moving on to look at that in the wider context of the fiscal framework and the question that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, put to me initially about whether we should wait until we have got the legislative consent Motion, I can assure her that I think that that is absolutely appropriate. Although legally we could move this legislation forward without the LCM, that would not be the appropriate thing to do. We are looking for progress from the Welsh Assembly and, as I understand it, discussions between my right honourable friend David Gauke, the Chief Secretary, and Minister Mark Drakeford are going well. I hope that progress continues and that I will be able to give more details to noble Lords as matters progress. That is certainly our intention.

[Lord Hain]

I welcome what the noble Lord said. Could he give some guidance as to whether clarity on the financial framework will be provided before Report in this House?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I anticipate that it will be, but it does not have to be. Obviously we will want to make sure that steady progress is being made before Report. As things progress it is anticipated that we could have agreement on these issues before Christmas, but I will ensure that the House is updated on this. As I said, I certainly anticipate we will not go to Third Reading without it and probably we will not go to Report—but I will want to make sure we are making the progress to which I referred before we commit to taking it to Report.

I move to the question of the single jurisdiction. I think there was broad support for saying that, certainly at this stage, there is no desire to move away from a single jurisdiction. I have spoken to representatives of every single law school in Wales and that is pretty much their feeling. It is also the feeling of many practitioners in Wales. We would not be doing Wales any great favours by differentiating the Welsh jurisdiction from the English jurisdiction. It is quite possible, even at this stage, to accentuate and overemphasise the differences that exist. Historically, they are not great. It is very different from the position in Scotland, where the Scottish jurisdiction historically has been very different. So parallels there are not appropriate.

There is a body that is looking at the legal arrangements. As I have indicated, I will update noble Lords on how that body is getting on, because there is an appropriate interest in making sure we have Welsh judges—when I say “Welsh judges” I mean judges not necessarily of Welsh nationality but with Welsh experience—deciding issues that are steeped in Welsh law. That is quite appropriate and what the administrative arrangements we are looking at should take hold of.

I move on to look at reservations—another key area which overlaps to some extent with the Welsh jurisdiction issues around the separate position on alcohol. I well remember as a student at Aberystwyth that the time I felt most thirsty and in need of a drink was on a Sunday. Inevitably, the only place you could get a drink on a Sunday in Aberystwyth was the student union because it was membership only. Of course, the queue was about a mile long to get there. The alternative in those days was getting a bus into Montgomeryshire, which was a popular thing to do. So I can understand the strong feelings that exist on that issue.

Some of the points made on reservations were somewhat wrongheaded. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, mentioned the position on knives in relation to the position on devolution to cities. Of course, cities will not have legislative powers in relation to knife crime, so I do not think it is a perfect analogy—but no doubt we can look at this as things develop in Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, said that adopting a reserved model is not a solution to all ills. Hear, hear to that. I never thought it would be. Obviously, the discussion on this will be about what is and what is not reserved. I am sure that we will take different views on some of that, but I look forward to discussing it when we come to Committee.

It is great to see the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, in his place, firing on all cylinders as always. I thank him for his kind comments. I do not agree with his position on dominion status. I do not hear that as a great clarion call for something that the people of Wales want, but I understand that he has some material points to discuss in relation to reservations and I look forward to hearing them as we move forward.

The conferred model was silent about many issues that nobody would ever anticipate, as opposed to reserved issues such as defence, immigration, the Crown and foreign affairs. Sensibly, nobody was suggesting that therefore these were matters the Welsh Assembly could deal with. It is quite a difficult manoeuvre to go from conferred to reserved. I am very grateful that noble Lords have recognised that we have made progress on this. I look forward to hearing from noble Lords on some of the remaining issues of concern.

I will touch on one or two other aspects raised by noble Lords that are worthy of further investigation. One, brought forward by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell and echoed by the noble Lords, Lord Murphy and Lord Morgan, was the importance of working with existing institutions—perhaps getting the physics right, not just the chemistry, of the relationship between different Ministers to make sure we have some underpinning for when it is necessary for decisions, policies or interactions to be discussed between Cardiff and Westminster. That is a very good point that I will take away and look at to see what we can do on it.

Without getting into the purely philosophical, another issue that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, mentioned was the permanence of the Assembly and the strength of the new clause that says the Assembly is permanent. That was something pushed for very hard by the Plaid Cymru representative on the Silk commission—but, on that issue, just as the India Act could in theory be repealed by the Westminster Parliament, I would not overlook the symbolic importance of including the clause that states that the Assembly is permanent because it perhaps underlines the way it is regarded politically. It is a matter of political realities. I am not suggesting that we can alter the Kelsen Grundnorm of the fundamental basis of the constitution, but it is something that has been widely welcomed.

As I said, this has been a debate of rare quality. I thank noble Lords for engaging constructively and I look forward to that constructive approach continuing. Lastly, air passenger duty is not just an issue of the potential unfairness to Bristol, which clearly was and, in the interim, remains an issue relating to the state aid position. It is also a question of fairness within the United Kingdom and in Wales. There is a great danger that we see this as just a tax, the variation of which can help Cardiff Airport. People in north Wales would not consider using Cardiff Airport; they use airports in England. Likewise, in central mid-Wales they would use Birmingham. It is a much broader issue of whether we do something about air passenger duty—as a Treasury issue, that is well beyond my pay grade—across the whole of the United Kingdom, which remains a possibility.

Once again, I thank noble Lords very much for the constructive way they have engaged. I look forward to Committee and continuing to provide information as it becomes available on the way that discussions are proceeding between the Treasury and Cardiff Bay. I beg to move.

Energy: Carbon Capture and Storage

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is wrong: it is not £1 million but £1 billion. This is the whole point. It is a massively expensive project. We have to look at value for money and at achieving the best ends for the best value. As I say, we recognise the importance of CCS. That is why we are carrying it forward in so many other ways.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Minister is as positive about carbon capture and storage as he has indicated with his warm words, why is he slashing its budget so savagely?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I have indicated that it is an issue of value for money. We do not believe that £1 billion spent on a competition is the right way forward. We are spending money elsewhere, such as on industrial carbon capture and storage; we are working with allies; and we have a powerful innovation budget. This is a key area, but we must get value for money.