Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Rennard

Tuesday 10th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. I very much hope that the Minister will perhaps, in this short debate, explain to us how the Government think this legislation should be reviewed, given the many potential traps within it that have been outlined during the various stages of our debate. A little earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, tried to entice me and others to support his amendment on the basis that the Labour Back Benches agreed with the Labour Front Bench. I have never found the proposition of the Labour Back Benches agreeing with their Front Bench automatically to be an enticement to support the arguments that they have put forward. In relation to this Bill, I have noted that, on occasions when the Opposition Front Bench and the Government Front Bench are agreed on a piece of legislation, but across all parts of the House great reservations are expressed about how the legislation might actually work in practice, as opposed to in the theory of the party leaders—who perhaps in haste have agreed to introduce measures such as this—we should keep that legislation under proper review. We always talk about the need for more post-legislative scrutiny, and I would very much like to hear from the Minister how the Government think that might be undertaken in this case.

[Lord Grocott]

I would have preferred the amendment of my noble friend Lord Soley, but this one is eminently sensible. The idea of a review after six years appeals to me. I put in an early bid to be a member of the reviewing committee, so that I could have the great pleasure of pointing out that the whole operation really was a waste of time, and being able to employ my favourite phrase: “I told you so”.

Local Authorities (Conduct of Referendums) (Council Tax Increases) (England) Regulations 2012

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Rennard

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Rennard]

My Lords, I, too, am a vice-president of the Local Government Association and I very much share the reservations and concerns just expressed by my noble friend Lord Jenkin in relation to these measures. Some of the particular difficulties with these regulations highlight some of the general difficulties with referendums. On 12 October 2010, the House debated the report of the Select Committee on the Constitution on the subject of referendums. There was clear agreement in that committee and no dissent in that debate that referendums are generally appropriate only for issues of major constitutional significance. In my contribution to that debate, reported at col. 428, I expressed my unhappiness at the idea of referendums being considered appropriate for much more widespread use.

One of the areas of difficulty with referendums is the potential level of disagreement about the wording of any question, which is the matter that I particularly wish to address in the Committee this afternoon. The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 established the Electoral Commission and gave it a role in considering questions to be put in referendums so that they are considered to be fair and intelligible. The Government followed the Electoral Commission’s advice in relation to the referendum about the AV voting system last year. They changed the proposed question when the commission put forward a clearer and simpler alternative wording.

Who sets a referendum question is currently a matter of major contention in relation to Scotland and the referendum on independence or an alternative form of further devolution. The Westminster Government have adopted the position that it is only proper legally for the Electoral Commission to be involved in framing that question, with the implication that the commission’s view may prevail over that of the Scottish First Minister, who may want what many people consider to be a less clear, less fair and potentially loaded question. However, in relation to questions on this issue, the Government have not yet agreed that the view of the Electoral Commission on the question to be put should prevail. Indeed, they may defy the views of the Electoral Commission on this matter.

I think that that is probably why your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution recommended that the Electoral Commission should be given statutory responsibility to formulate referendum questions, which should then be presented to Parliament for approval. The Government did not accept that position and perhaps these regulations and the arguments over the wording of the questions illustrate why. The Government have accepted only that the commission’s view should be taken into account in framing the question included in regulations such as those being considered today, so I hope that the Minister will give us a clear account of the process that will be involved in agreeing the final wording of the questions. We would like to know how it might be agreed what the role of the Electoral Commission will be. In particular, I would like to know that the specific wording of the questions will be tested properly with voters and with plain language experts, as was the case with the referendum question last year when the Government insisted that the question to be put to people should be properly tested in that way. We would like to know that the questions proposed will be clear, simple and neutral, as the Electoral Commission insists.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I am the first person to speak who is not an honorary vice-president of the Local Government Association, but I find myself in complete agreement—it is a new coalition—with the noble Lords, Lord Jenkin and Lord Rennard. I come to this entirely fresh because I did not take part in the Localism Bill; I was completely exhausted after taking part in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, in which much of the time was spent trying to persuade the Government not to spend £100 million on a referendum on the alternative vote system. I am not sorry now that we had the referendum because I was very pleased with the result, but that does not justify the expenditure.

To pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, although we argued about pretty well everything else, there was no argument, so far as I can recall, about the decision that it should be the Electoral Commission that decided the language of the referendum. You have to have a neutral body deciding what question is going to be put.

As I said, I have come to this absolutely clean, but with a certain scepticism about new-fangled constitutional arrangements. When I started reading the detail of this—and, in particular, when I saw this document priced at £18.50—my reaction was, “What a spectacular waste of money, time and energy”. I would love to know how many hundreds if not thousands of hours of Civil Service time were spent producing this—they are looking weary behind the Minister, though no doubt they are 100 per cent loyal—not to mention the cost of the referendum. I would like the Minister to tell us, should there be a referendum, what the estimated cost would be for the average local authority to carry it out. We are all strapped for cash at the moment.

I hear a great deal about the need to consult the local electorate. I can only say that my experience of local government, not only as a councillor but also as someone who took a tremendous interest in local government in my area in all the time I was a Member of Parliament, has been that councillors of all parties spend inordinate amounts of time angst-ing—if that is a word—about the level of council tax, about whether it would be acceptable to the electorate and about what would be the likely outcome of a future election if they did not listen to what the electorate were saying. Councillors are usually in a pretty good position to make that assessment. Why we need this other, elaborate structure grafted on top of the established principles of local accountability I really do not know, particularly when it is likely to be at considerable expense—and then when I read the details, this almost defies satirical comment.

“It is possible for multiple council tax referendums”,

we are told in the advisory note,

“to be held within the same area … a billing authority could have to hold a referendum on its own excessive increase as well as that of a Police Authority, Fire and Rescue Authority, County Council and a number of local precepting authorities in its area”.

I cannot believe that I am reading that. Is it actually possible that there could be six, seven or eight referendums in the same area at the same time? I am coming to it fresh, so maybe there is a point that I have overlooked. I cannot believe that anyone is seriously advocating that as a sensible way of proceeding locally.

I cannot see what this is doing that cannot be done through the normal local electoral process. I am sure that it will cost money—perhaps the Minister can tell us. I am particularly concerned—I will not spell out again what the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, said, because he said it very effectively—about the fire that the Government are playing with, in the light of all that might be happening in Scotland, by saying that they will not accept what the Electoral Commission is saying about the wording of a referendum. That is a pretty risky route to follow. I do not know how they would explain to the Government in Scotland, let alone anyone else, why it is right for the Electoral Commission or other neutral body to determine the wording of the referendum there when they have blood on their hands by apparently disregarding the Electoral Commission’s advice here. It is a route that I would strongly advise them not to pursue.

I have not heard the Minister’s passionate advocacy of why this will transform life as we know it and bring happiness to local areas, which is usually what you hope for when you see new legislation coming along. This seems to me a waste of time and a waste of money.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Rennard

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

I support Amendment 2 and the amendments in my name and the names of my noble friends Lord Marks and Lord Tyler.

Many noble Lords will know that I have long been an advocate of voting at weekends. They will also know how frustrated I feel that, among the many models piloted by the previous Labour Government to try to explore different ways of increasing turnout in local elections, only one pilot of weekend voting was ever undertaken—in one place, at one weekend—and that was of limited value. The idea of voting at weekends is not new; it has been floated and discussed in some form, but never properly debated in Parliament in such a way as to enable Parliament to decide the issue.

The Home Affairs Select Committee considered the issue in 1997; a Home Office working party looked at it in 1999; it was the subject of some limited debate when we permitted pilots as a result of the Representation of the People Act in 2000; the then Office of the Deputy Prime Minister further considered the matter in a consultation paper in 2002; the then new Electoral Commission published a report on election timetables in June 2003 and again in 2007; that year, weekend voting was again floated as part of the Government’s Governance of Britain Green Paper; and a separate consultation paper was then published specifically on this issue in 2008. That was supposed to feed into a citizens’ summit, which would recommend whether or not to go ahead with weekend voting later in 2008. That summit never happened. We have never had a proper debate in Parliament to determine the issue.

The principle of weekend voting is simple: more people are at home and free to vote for more of the day at a weekend than they are on a weekday. One possibility is to give people two days over the weekend on which to vote. This would avoid potential problems with religious observance and give people more than twice as much opportunity to participate. Many noble Lords have participated in elections and those who have campaigned will know the frustration of trying to contact voters among the working population of a constituency, in the few hours before the polls close at 10 pm, in order to remind them to vote. They will also have had extensive experience of trudging the streets during the day on polling day and vainly knocking on the doors of people who are out at work. We try to encourage them to vote but know that they cannot.

All those involved in elections know that people who are contacted on polling day and reminded by parties to vote are significantly more likely to vote than those who are not. It stands to reason that if people are contacted during the weekend when they are at home and reminded to vote, they are significantly more likely to participate. All good democrats should agree that increasing participation in elections is a good thing, especially as turnout has declined in many recent elections.

[Lord Grocott]

I know that the noble Lord favours different electoral systems and is passionate about increased participation in elections. Does he acknowledge that there is no evidence whatever in this country that changing an electoral system increases participation? In fact, we know that the various election systems that he supports lead to far more spoilt ballot papers, which, surely, is a further illustration of weakening participation in elections.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I echo what my noble friend Lord Howarth has said about how much better debates on major constitutional reform are when we get contributions from all parts of the House, which has characterised the debate on this amendment. I welcome the fact that we have had the opportunity to discuss this amendment even though I have real anxieties about it. Perhaps it is a sign of a simple mind, but one of the tests I put to constitutions is the extent to which they are straightforward, intelligible and as simple as possible, which is one of the many reasons why I am so strongly in favour of first past the post.

While I do not doubt for a minute the good intentions of people who think that we should have a couple of days to vote, there would be a problem. It would just extend the development, which has undoubtedly occurred in most of our lifetimes—I do not want to be rude in characterising it in this way—towards a kind of rolling election as opposed to an election day when the nation makes a decision. In part, a rolling election is very much as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has said. I know that under a Labour Government there was substantial development of postal voting. In effect, we have at least two election days, if not a longer period. There is the crucial day when the postal ballots go out and people react to that. Then there are the days between the postal ballots and the election day when more ballots come in, which makes it a kind of rolling election.

I feel a certain nervousness about extending the election over two days. At least it might mean that a lot of the drama will undoubtedly be removed from election day. Perhaps I am wishing for days that have passed to think that that drama can ever come back. The February 1974 election was certainly profoundly dramatic for me because it was one of the many elections that I managed to lose and there were several recounts into the middle of the night. We were pretty tired over that period, but that is part of the drama of an election night.

What would happen between the two polling days? Perhaps we would all sit in limbo. Again, I am trying to avoid crudely partisan points, but occasionally I cannot manage that. A rolling election period would be made worse by more complicated election systems. I genuinely respect the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, who has participated throughout. If the AV vote is passed, it will inevitably mean that counting will occur on the day after. It is inconceivable that an AV vote could be counted through the night of an election day.

[Lord Rennard]

One of the attractions of voting on a Saturday and a Sunday, between the hours of, say, 9 am and 6 pm, would be that the counts would begin at 6 pm on Sunday. Before the last general election, there was great controversy in the other place about when counts might take place and great concern that many of them would take place on the Friday rather than the Thursday. The Electoral Commission was greatly concerned about the accuracy of the counting by people who had been involved in the process from setting up the polling stations for 7 am to finishing at 10 pm and then counting the vote sometimes through to 4 am or 6 am on the next morning. It seems much more sensible for voting to take place during normal hours on a Saturday and Sunday and for votes to be counted on a Sunday evening. The noble Lord says that he personally did not like the February 1974 election results. I wonder whether he would prefer the system of 100 years earlier when a general election took place on different days in different constituencies all over the country.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Rennard

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

If the noble Lord is so convinced by the strength of his arguments over the past 21 minutes, why is he so frightened of putting this to the British people in a referendum so that they can decide the issues?

[Lord Grocott]

I would not have taken so long if I had not had so many interesting interventions. I am afraid that I will have to toss this back at the noble Lord. If the Lib Dems are so convinced, as they have been telling me ad nauseam over the years, that the British public are crying out for electoral reform, why on earth are they desperately putting the referendum on the same day as other elections, in the hope that they might get 30 or 35 per cent of the electorate to turn out? I understood that the public were queueing up to take part in any opportunity to get rid of the old, discredited system, as the Lib Dems call it. I am afraid that that is another theory that has been tested under fire and found wanting.

This clause will stand part of the Bill. It has limped along, drawing no enthusiasm from any of its proponents. I understand that there are always dilemmas about whether you can support your own Government in office. I do not criticise anyone, but I have no doubt what would happen if we had a good old-fashioned secret ballot on the Bill, nor about what would have happened if a secret ballot had been held in the Commons before they sent the Bill here. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, knows this as well as I do. He is well versed in the machinations of the higher echelons of parties—at least he was when I knew him—and he knows perfectly well that this is a friendless Bill and that this clause is certainly a friendless clause. I hope that we will remember that when we continue debating the Bill.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Rennard

Monday 6th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

My Lords, I thought that we had a very good compromise in 1997 agreed with the party of the noble Lord opposite but, after 13 years, that compromise was never delivered. I was quoting the Deputy Prime Minister rather more fully; I was going to talk about the word “little”, which he used. I believe that it is a little change, which preserves the single-Member constituencies, which Members in other parties hold very dearly. I happen not to. But since it preserves the single-Member constituency principle, I believe that it is a little change that will bring greater benefit.

There is also, of course, the word “miserable”. The only thing that would make me really miserable—and I say this in all sincerity to noble Lords who supported Amendment 16—would be if we failed to give people their say and made progress on a form of voting system that was effectively designed for the political circumstances in 1872, when Gladstone brought in the Secret Ballot Act.

[Lord Grocott]

Will the noble Lord clear up one crucial issue for me, at least, and I hope for the House, about the Liberal Democrats’ approach to this referendum? They constantly refer to it as a compromise—and whether it is miserable or not is for others to decide—while several are on record as saying that it is a step in the right direction. If there is a referendum next May and the result is in favour of the alternative vote, although I hope it is not, for how long do the Liberal Democrats consider that decision to be binding?

[Lord Rennard]

My own view is that since Gladstone introduced the current system in 1872 in the Secret Ballot Act, for 138 years noble Lords and Members in another place decided that that system was perfectly good without revision and without letting people have their say. It is a good precedent to let people have their say, and we will wait to see when there is public demand again to have any further say. But for 138 years we have kept the same system. One hundred years ago, a Royal Commission recommended the adoption of the alternative vote, and 93 years ago, a Speakers Conference recommended the use of preference voting. Seventy-nine years ago, the other place voted for the adoption of the alternative vote, which was blocked on five occasions by your Lordships’ House. It is 36 years since a minority Conservative Government offered another Speakers Conference on electoral reform and it is 13 years since a Labour Government with a large majority had a manifesto promise and were elected on the basis that there would be a referendum on the issue of proportional representation. So it is a significant achievement for all those committed to electoral reform that twice this year in the House of Commons, with different Governments in place, there have been substantial majorities for a referendum to be held on the alternative vote. I want to see progress on this issue and hope that we will not give Members in another place a further opportunity to deny the voters their say on this issue and leave us back where we were in 1872.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Rennard

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will not be surprised to find that his amendment does not find favour with me. I hope noble Lords will generally appreciate the position of many of us on these Benches. We feel a high degree of frustration about suggestions of inquiries, commissions, consultations, deliberations on electoral systems, and suggestions that there should be a referendum for people to decide at some unspecified future date. We have a long history of observing these things, and these electoral systems have been examined by many people over many decades. Many forms of electoral system now operate in this country, including, for example, the alternative vote system. In particular, Scotland operates STV when all its council elections are due but the alternative vote when it has a council by-election. The problems in Australia to which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, referred do not appear to happen in Scotland when Scottish voters are using the alternative vote to elect a single councillor. So I would pray in aid what is happening in Scotland and in Northern Ireland as being perhaps a little more relevant than suggestions about problems somewhere in Australia.

It seems to me that the academic evidence generally suggests—and it is the consensus of those who take the closest interest in these issues—that there really are no advantages in the so-called supplementary vote system compared with the alternative vote system and that there are a significant number of disadvantages to it. Principally—and the reason why it is not used by any of the parties using alternative vote in their internal mechanisms—the supplementary vote system has the same problem as first past the post in that you have to try to guess who is near the top of the pile and use your vote tactically. That does not necessarily work, particularly when you have a more than two-party system, and we should recognise that these days we have a more than two-party system—indeed, at least a four-party system—in Scotland and in Wales. For voters to be expected to try to guess which two are in the lead and to use one of their Xs only for one of the two parties deemed to be the biggest is not fair. It is not fair to Green voters and perhaps to other voters in England, and it is not fair in the four-party systems that operate in Scotland and in Wales.

It was not without reason and not without considerable debate that the last Labour Government introduced a proposal for AV in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act in the last Parliament. It was not without considerable debate and discussion and proper examination, I have no doubt, that the proposal for AV and a referendum was included in the last Labour Party manifesto in the general election just six months ago. I am sure that the party has its deliberative mechanisms for forming its manifesto.

In response to this general debate about modes of AV, SV or other systems, and comments that AV does not work, we should bear in mind how widely it is used. It is used by the Conservative Party in electing its party leader and its candidates; it is used by the Labour Party in electing its leader and its candidates; and it is used by the Liberal Democrats in electing our leader and our candidates. It is widely used in many other organisations, including the Church of England and many of the charities.

Voters in this country are used to using 1, 2, 3; it is a very simple and easily understood system. I fundamentally believe that the issue of whether we go to AV now or we stick with first past the post is primarily a question for the voters in this country, which they should have in a referendum very soon and on the most appropriate day.

In my view, too much of this discussion and debate is about which system is supposed to favour which party. That is totally the wrong argument and issue. We should let the voters decide on this issue, and the system should be decided according to which system gives most power to the voter. AV gives more power to the voter than first past the post.

[Lord Grocott]

The noble Lord stressed heavily the importance of consulting the electorate before a change is made. Is he, with his long experience of Lib Dem organisation, able to confirm to this Committee whether in the course of the coalition negotiations the Lib Dem party was trying to persuade both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party to push ahead with a Bill for AV without a referendum? Can he throw some light on that? It is crucial to this debate.

[Lord Rennard]

My Lords, I can throw no more light than the books currently in circulation describing the coalition talks; I was not privy to them in detail. However, I understand that the Labour Party proposed that it would proceed with AV, as in its manifesto; and it was conceded by the Conservative Party that it would proceed with AV in a referendum to be held at some point in the future, and subsequently it was agreed that it would be held on 5 May. I do not think that that is terribly relevant. The important thing is which system gives most power to the voters. AV gives more power to the voters than first past the post and we should let the voters choose on that basis.