House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Northbrook

2nd reading
Friday 3rd December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Northbrook (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. Does he recall the passage in Alastair Campbell’s memoirs when he said that he could not believe that Viscount Cranborne was going to go along with this deal, as it was only going to end in tears for him?

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

I am not sure that I understood that intervention. I have read most of Alastair Campbell’s memoirs—but I can tell the noble Lord what was going on in Downing Street in 1999, because I was working there. We were certainly worried to death about the whole of that legislative programme. Our clear manifesto commitment was to remove all the hereditaries, and we were prevented from doing that because we were told that the rest of the programme would be wrecked. If there are any noble Lords who have not picked up on that and understood it, will they please read it again in Hansard, or read the comments that the Marquess of Salisbury has made? Do us all a favour, please, and when or if we have this debate next year—if it fails this year, I shall bring it back, and that is not a threat but a promise—let us end the discussion about that. It is simply false, incorrect, wrong and absurd. I hope that I have made myself clear.

The other point that needs repeating, even though several—

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Northbrook

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Northbrook (Con)]

My Lords, I firmly support my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment but it needs a little tweaking. In moving Amendment 2 I will speak also to Amendments 16 and 31. I am amending my noble friend’s amendment because I believe, contrary to the Bill, that the current royal officeholders—the Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain—and their successors should remain Members of the House of Lords.

The Earl Marshal is the eighth of the great offices of state. The Duke of Norfolk’s family has held that position since 1672, being responsible, as my noble friend Lord Cormack said, for organising major ceremonial occasions, the monarch’s coronation and state funerals. He also oversees the College of Arms. The Lord Great Chamberlain is the sixth of the great offices of state, having charge of the Palace of Westminster. The office goes back to William the Conqueror’s reign. It is quite right that these two royal officeholders should remain Members of the House of Lords due to the importance of their roles and duties. Amendment 16 would adjust the Bill’s wording to put that into effect.

Amendment 31 covers a slightly different situation. At the end of last year, I was pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, elected as one of the 90 hereditary Peers through a by-election. However, when Her Majesty dies, the noble Lord will become the Lord Great Chamberlain, as the position rotates between different peerage families on the death of the sovereign. As a result, there will be a vacancy among the 90 excepted hereditary Peers. This situation is not covered by the new subsection (4) proposed by Clause 1(3), which refers only to,

“the death, retirement, resignation or expulsion of an excepted person”.

Hence I believe that in these circumstances, a by-election should be held. I beg to move.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I fear that we may already be losing the dozen people I understand to be following this discussion in the country at large. I will try to expedite things. The retention of these two positions is completely anachronistic. Two hereditary positions remaining in perpetuity when they do not take part in events here is odd, particularly when we are trying to reduce the size of the House to 600. However, it is not germane to the Bill’s central purpose, which is to end by-elections, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said. On those terms, I accept the amendment and hope that we can get on to Amendment 2A.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I am profoundly grateful for that intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Russell, which is one of the most effective contributions that we have heard in this long discussion. I stand now because we are close enough to 1.30, when we had agreed that this would finish, to move that debate on amendments be now adjourned.

[Lord Northbrook]

My Lords, I am thankful to all noble Lords who spoke. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Northbrook

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 7th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Northbrook]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 15 in this group, which provides that future vacancies shall be filled,

“using a method which ensures that over time excepted hereditary peers are elected on a basis which provides for a fair representation of hereditary peers representing Northern Ireland and Scotland”.

[Lord Grocott]

To save a lot of words, can the noble Lord just confirm that his amendment, if carried, would mean the continuation of by-elections for hereditary Peers, the precise matter that this Bill tries to deals with?

[Lord Northbrook]

I agree that I support the continuation of the by-elections, but this amendment is looking at the House of Lords Act 1999 and amending it accordingly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Northbrook]

This point was not covered on the first day of Committee.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, perhaps I may offer a gentle suggestion to the noble Lord. I do not think that he is carrying the mood of the Committee in wishing to speak to Amendment 16, which was spoken to three months ago. The previous vote rather indicates that, whatever eloquent tactics he deploys, he is most unlikely to carry the Committee, and I suggest that we move on.

[Lord Northbrook]

I note what the noble Lord says. Actually, it was not covered on day one, but I take the mood of the Committee and shall not move the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Northbrook]

Can the noble Lord explain to me why he put 92 in this Bill but 90 in the previous Bill? I do not understand that point.

[Lord Grocott]

I have no problem whatever with someone being called the Lord Great Chamberlain or anything else. I was intrigued to know that apparently the office would not go to the same family as currently occupies that role. I do not know whether any of our families might qualify, but so far I have heard nothing. The point is that I can see no reason whatever why these two offices of state, which perform ceremonial functions, need to be in the House of Lords in order to perform that function. At least one of them—two of them for most of the time—has been on permanent leave of absence, so their functions can clearly be carried out perfectly effectively whether or not they are Members of the House of Lords. Whether people can become Members of the House of Lords via heredity is the issue that we are considering.