Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I never quite thought this day would come. We have had endless Private Members’ Bills and numerous discussions on the Floor of the House, and now we have recognition, which I am delighted about, from the usual channels that to hold two further hereditary Peers’ by-elections at a time when Parliament was considering ending such elections would make us even more of a laughing stock than these by-elections do in any case.

I have to say it slowly: this almost certainly means the end of hereditary Peers’ by-elections. That is wonderful as far as I am concerned. It means an end to the clerk having to moonlight as a returning officer; it means an end to me having to give observations on the political significance of a particular by-election as and when it is declared; and of course it means that I shall not fulfil my ambition, which was to become the House’s equivalent of Professor Sir John Curtice in relation to by-elections. I should say as well, just as a general observation, that it means an end to elections that are men-only elections and an end to elections such as one where there was an electorate of three and six candidates—unknown in the western, eastern, northern or southern world, as far as I know.

So the time has come at last, in a puff of smoke on a damp Thursday morning, when these wretched by-elections will come to a conclusion. I simply say to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan: know when it is over.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, that hereditary by-elections are probably now coming to an end. That does not stop this move being illegal; it is against the set-down rules, which is rather strange from a party whose leader was Director of Public Prosecutions and was dedicated to obeying the rule of law. The problem, of course, is that none of us in this House is legitimate; we are all appointed by one body or individual or another, and the only people who are elected by anybody are the hereditaries—so, in many ways, they have a superior right to be here than we do.

Hereditary Peers By-election

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, as is traditional on these occasions, I would like to say a few words. I have been in politics long enough to know that the results of these by-elections may not make it to tomorrow’s front pages. I thank the returning officer and congratulate the two winning candidates; they are coming in batches now. They are two new Members of Parliament and we give them our congratulations, as we always do.

It would be churlish of me not to recognise, as well, the achievement of the Government in successfully defending a seat in a parliamentary by-election. Such is the Alice in Wonderland atmosphere at the moment, I would not be at all surprised if the Prime Minister used these by-election results as proof that he is still a vote winner.

It is a year since these by-elections were resumed. As the House knows, there was a long interregnum when they were put in abeyance during the period of the Covid difficulties. I can briefly give a review of the year and give the House one or two statistics. This year we have had 11 new Members of Parliament, which is what they are, as a result of these by-elections. Seven of them were in this constituency of Conservative hereditary Peers, so the 46 hereditary Peers in the Conservative group have provided us with seven new Members of Parliament in 12 months.

While I commiserate with those who lost, the good news is that plenty more opportunities will be coming along. These by-elections are coming with increasing regularity. I can tell the House that, of the 12 candidates this time round, one of the losers—I will not mention the name because that would be mildly embarrassing—has already had 18 attempts at winning a by-election. That is persistence, but even that is not the record: the record holder, according to my statistics, is the candidate who has had a go on 22 occasions. I have lost a few elections over the years, but that really is Guinness book of records stuff.

The House will not be surprised to learn that of the 77 people who contested the 11 by-elections over the last 12 months, all were men, so there is a bit of a work to be done on gender equality in the House.

The last stat that I shall give, and I do not know whether this is good or bad news for the House, is that, of the original 90 who were the result of the House of Lords Act 1999, 44—of the lucky 70 on that occasion—are still in the House, but I am afraid that Father Time takes his toll and inevitably those 44 people are 23 years older, so we can be certain that, although the 11 new Members this year are a record, since that is the highest number in one year since the 1999 Act, I would not be at all surprised if that record was broken quite soon. I am told that more people are expected to resign before long.

All I can really say to the House is that these elections look as though they are going on and on, but if they do not go away then neither will I.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to those from the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on the election of these two hereditary Peers. At least they have been elected to your Lordships’ House, which is more than one can say for either the noble Lord or myself.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Tuesday 10th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, it is the job of Parliament and this House to be clear in our language as far as possible. I was wondering whether I had time to rush out and check a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary. In all my years in public life, the word “petition” has always involved collecting names and presenting them on a list to whoever you are petitioning. That was certainly the case in the other place, and I assume it is in this House, although I have no experience of it. Should the Government not be minded to accept this amendment, it would involve a redefinition of the word “petition”. A petition involves petitioners, and petitioners are not anonymous people who cannot be traced.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I have been a little confused by this as well. I imagined that when people signed the petition, they would be crossed off the electoral roll—that would be the proof that they had signed. There would be no question of checking the signatures; it would be a question of checking the electoral roll. I would be grateful if my noble friend could fill us in on that.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, perhaps I am slightly out of turn in mentioning this at this point, but it will save time. My suggestion that Clause 5 should not stand part of the Bill is included in this group. I tabled it simply to enable me to make a point that I cannot find a way of making by means of an amendment, but it is something which goes to the heart of the Bill. My view is very simple indeed, because I like simplicity. We have a very good system for recalling MPs—it is called a general election. That is the point at which MPs should be judged and perhaps removed by their constituents; that is, on the basis of their performance over the preceding period of time.

I love the word “anomaly”, which has been used today. It seems to me to be rather anomalous, or perhaps inconsistent, that this Government, who deliberately and as a matter of public policy decided that general elections will be held less frequently, should be introducing a Bill to provide for recall. Of course, if you have general elections every four years instead of every five years, then as we know from Clause 5, the recall does not operate during the six months prior to the election. If there were elections every four years, there would be more occasions when the recall provisions would not apply, which I suppose is a legalistic way of saying what I am arguing. Recall becomes redundant when general elections are held.

If the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is to reply to this debate, I should say that I have found that not many members of his party agree with me on getting rid of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, but I am heartened by the fact that I know members of his party—I do not want to disclose names—who think that fixed terms, if they exist, should definitely be every four years, not every five years; indeed it used to be his party’s policy. That is a less bad situation as far as I am concerned, and it is undoubtedly and unarguably a more democratic and accountable system. In trying to appeal to the values that are frequently claimed as being a particular characteristic of the Liberal Democrats, perhaps I may put it to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that on the grounds of democracy and accountability, it is better to have elections every four years rather than every five years. Should that happen, we would have less need to invoke the provisions of this Bill for recall.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Was it not a very great mistake, if the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill was going to be introduced merely to suit this coalition Government, not to have given it a sunset clause so that it does not go on into the next Parliament?

[Lord Grocott]

That is absolutely right, but of course we know why the five-year provision was enacted in the first place. We owe it to David Laws, who gave us an explanation in his book, which I would recommend noble Lords read, if they have not done so already: 22 Days in May. In it he states that in the course of the negotiations between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives:

“We mentioned that our own policy was for four-year, fixed-term parliaments. George Osborne made the point that five-year parliaments were better, as they allowed governments to get into implementing their plans before having to start worrying about the timing of the electoral cycle. We—

that is, the Liberal Democrats—

“made no objection to this, and Britain was on its way to five-year, fixed-term parliaments”.

So, as described by David Laws, the five years were introduced so as not worry about the timing of the electoral cycle, which I think is a polite way of saying “without having to worry about the electorate”. Will the Minister at least acknowledge that the best way of dealing with this business of accountability may be to have rather more frequent general elections?

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, as a Conservative, I am extremely reluctant to see Parliament at any stage fiddling about with our constitution, and I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, that if it is not bust, why fix it? Having said that, the coalition quite clearly finds it necessary as part of its agreement to have a five-year fixed Parliament, and if that is what it wants to do, so be it. I have a little trouble in understanding how a Government continue to govern when they no longer have a majority in the House of Commons, but that is another issue. I do not think there is any strong reason why this legislation should go through in perpetuity. I do not see what is wrong in returning to the status quo ante. There seemed to me to be nothing wrong in the way the system worked, and I do not know why we should therefore be trying to commit future Governments to five-year fixed Parliaments just because it is convenient for this coalition Government to have a five-year Parliament this time round. Therefore, I will be more than happy to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I strongly agree with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton. I want to make a pretty brief point. The trouble is that when I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, he almost tempted me to a Second Reading observation. I was astonished by his last argument, as I understood it—he must stop me if I am factually wrong at any point—that he was elected in February 1974. Did he lose his seat in October 1974?