Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I alluded earlier to the report from the IPC. That is why we are working around the clock to ensure that we make the point to Israel about humanitarian access, which, as I said before, we made in our last meeting with Minister Gantz. The need to deliver humanitarian aid was clear and accepted; that is why we persist on this. I have also acknowledged that there has been an uptick in the number of trucks going in—a greater number compared to last month. Still, this is not enough. It is important that we see the kind of aid going in. A ceasefire is coming into place for the period of Ramadan, but we need it to be sustainable and, ultimately, for the reconstruction that is so desperately needed to begin, so that people can start rebuilding their lives.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, given that we all described—quite rightly in my view—the dreadful attack in southern Israel resulting in the deaths of 1,200 people as “slaughter”, what language is left to describe the deaths in Gaza of 33,000 Palestinians, including 13,500 children and babies? How do we describe that? Is killing on that scale consistent with Israel’s right, which we all respect, to self-defence? Is it necessary? In view of international humanitarian law, is killing on that scale in Gaza, and the horror that is Gaza today, a proportionate response by Israel?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, of course, any person who has been killed in this conflict or any other is tragedy beyond belief. The number of people that have been killed in Gaza is shocking. What happened on 7 October was shocking. We see innocent civilians who have been impacted, whether the hostage families or the thousands of people who have been killed in Gaza. This is a human tragedy; I have described it as a catastrophe in every sense.

That is why it needs all nobly intentioned countries to come together and act as one. We need to make sure the resolutions that have been passed by the Security Council are fully implemented. This is not the first one; Resolution 2720 was passed on humanitarian access specifically. Hamas is different from Israel: we expect Israel to adhere to IHL; Hamas is a terrorist organisation. We are talking about two very different entities. That is why we will never give up hope and will continue our strong advocacy and work with key partners to ensure we can bring this tragic conflict to an end. I am sure the noble Lord, like us all, acknowledges that the loss of any innocent life is a tragedy beyond belief, and we have seen far too many people killed in this conflict.

Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will know from his own time at the Foreign Office that the current Prime Minister and Government of Israel do not articulate the two-state solution. However, it is the long-standing position of successive British Governments and, as I have again articulated, it is our firm view and that of the US, key partners in Europe and key partners in the region that the two-state solution is the only solution that will provide the sustainable security, justice and peace that are equally deserved by Palestinians and Israelis.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has repeatedly referred to the need for a sustainable peace and a two-state solution, with which virtually everyone must surely agree. The Foreign Secretary has made clear that that will inevitably include the recognition of a Palestinian state. I would like the Minister’s response to a significant but unfortunate development in the last 10 days that makes a two-state solution that much more remote: the statement by Prime Minister Netanyahu, who we have long known from his actions has no intention of recognising or accepting a Palestinian state, making it plain and explicit that Israel’s control over the West Bank will remain indefinitely and that he is totally opposed to a two-state solution. As that means violating international law, among many other things, can the Minister tell us in concrete terms, in pursuit of a two-state solution, what representations the Government and the international community are making to the Israeli Government, but specifically to the Prime Minister, as to how on earth he expects to achieve a sustainable peace in the Middle East if the Palestinians are constantly denied a homeland?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I think I have made our Government’s position clear: it needs to happen. The Palestinians deserve a state, and that is what we are working on. My noble friend Lord Cameron articulated the important issue of recognising Palestine at the appropriate time within the process that is currently under way. It does not need to happen on day one, but nor does that mean it will happen at the end of the process. It is important that we work with key partners, and the issue of recognising Palestine, including at the UN, is part of that process. It is not just the United Kingdom that has articulated that very clearly to Israel but our key partners and, importantly, the United States. The noble Lord will have heard Secretary of State Blinken be very clear that the United States rejected Mr Netanyahu’s proposals for Gaza, including security buffers. We share that position. Equally, we will implore and advocate. The noble Lord is quite right: the existence of Israel and a future Palestinian state is enshrined in UN Security Council resolutions and constitutes international law. That needs to be abided by.

Occupied Palestinian Territories: Humanitarian Situation

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 9th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness—I have said this before about the hostages—that we are working with many of the countries she highlights. Qatar, for example, as the noble Baroness will know, is playing a key role in this respect. That is a key focus for us in our priorities. There are three areas. We want those who need to leave Gaza to leave, the hostages to be released and the aid to go in. Those three things require that we work towards ensuring that the conditions on the ground sustain that. Let me reassure the noble Baroness, in terms of not just the hostage release but the future, that the near neighbours to Israel need to play a role as partners in peace. I can assure the noble Baroness that, from our conversations and the discussions and diplomatic engagement we are having, they are very seized of that priority.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, sooner or later there will be a ceasefire. The only question is: how many people will get killed between now and when the ceasefire takes place? We all know the pattern after that. It will not end the conflict: there will be a period of quiet and then another flare-up, which we hope will not be as bad as this one. There is no prospect of any peace in this part of the world until the Palestinians have what the Israelis have long had: a state of their own. I want to hear from the Minister an assurance that he will not turn his back, as the rest of the world tends to as soon as the immediate conflict is over, and that he will ensure that the British Government—despairing as they must currently sound about a two-state solution—realise that you cannot have two states when you recognise only one. The Palestinians deserve no less.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I can assure the noble Lord. I have been a Minister for a while, but I will share with noble Lords that this is probably one of the most challenging and toughest not only briefs but occasions when I am standing before your Lordships’ House, speaking about what is currently happening and the shocking events in Israel on 7 October. Subsequently, we have seen what is being endured by innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza—this has to stop. I mentioned this being sustained in my opening comments; I will not turn my back, and I hope that noble Lords will not turn theirs. There will not be a short-term solution; this will require long-term focus. Looking around this Chamber, I am sure that whoever stands in my place in the months and years to come will also reflect the importance of finding a lasting solution—it is not papering over the cracks, as the noble Lord said, because this will erupt again. We need to ensure that terrorist organisations such as Hamas are not in governance positions, which is why we support the Palestinian Authority. Ultimately, as we, the Americans, the Europeans and the Gulf states have said, sustainable peace can be achieved only when there are two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side—not just independent but ultimately, we hope, learning that coexistence is the way forward.

Palestine: Recognition

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 6th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the basis of the criteria the noble Lord outlined is directly relevant. That is why, as I said in my original Answer, the United Kingdom will recognise a Palestinian state when it is conducive to ensuring lasting peace in the Middle East.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Desirable as I think most of us agree it is to achieve a two-state solution, is it not a matter of obvious fact that such a solution is not possible so long as the illegal settlements remain?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe I have already addressed that question. As I said, we believe—it is a long-standing position—that settlements are an obstacle to peace.

Russia: Sanctions

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 1st February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly provide more details on the noble Lord’s second question. Yes, we are working with key allies, as I indicated, over the course of the last two months and beyond. We have been working with our key European allies and directly with the EU. We have been working with the United States, as well as partners further afield, on how we can act together on the situation in Ukraine. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, mentioned the importance of sanctions and working together in a co-ordinated fashion. I assure the House that we are doing exactly that. On the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I fear that if I was to say anything further it would run to speculation. But, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said yesterday in the House of Commons, whether our approach is diplomatic or looking at the issue of economics and the cost of Russia, everything is very much on the table.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, further to the question of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, can the Minister tell us, as and when the Prime Minister talks to President Putin—inevitably, the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO will be raised as a Russian concern—what precisely is the Government’s position on the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, on the central point of Ukraine joining NATO, it is first and foremost a defensive alliance. A country can make an application and it is considered by all members of NATO. No country should be told specifically that it cannot be a member of a particular alliance; it is very much for Ukraine to request its membership and for members of NATO to decide.

Afghanistan: Humanitarian Crisis

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 13th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, we know that before the full takeover by the Taliban, there were many examples of co-operation between the Taliban locally and aid organisations, though it was very patchy in different parts of the country. Can the Minister tell us anything about the direction of travel on this post the Taliban takeover? Is it still patchy, or is there any evidence at all that those areas where the co-operation did not work successfully are learning from those where it does and benefits the people? How is this moving? Is it getting better or worse?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, there are various strands. The Taliban themselves are not a homogenous group, and there are various factions within the Taliban which control various parts of the country. However, promisingly, I was updated that with the commitments we have made and the support we have given to organisations, such as the World Food Programme, they have been able to distribute humanitarian aid and support not just to a selective number of regions but to most parts of the country. We are encouraged that there is good co-operation on the ground, but this could change very quickly, so we should we remain ever vigilant. I assure the noble Lord that I will continue to update your Lordships’ House accordingly.

UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 9th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be fully aware of my views on that. No British money should be spent on any textbook or support for any institution or organisation that suggests or inflicts that kind of extremist ideology on any community or any child anywhere in the world. I assure him that, in our support for UNRWA, we are vigilant on these issues. I am cognisant of reports that have been produced in this regard, and we have completed a full audit to ensure that the facilities we support are fully consistent with not just our values but those of the UN.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has been in his post a good deal of time now and is a very effective Minister. How much longer must the people of the Occupied Territories suffer and be humiliated, in the way that they have for so many years, before the international community and the British Government in particular start taking some positive steps? How is it credible to continue to argue for a two-state solution when we recognise just one of the two states? Is it not high time that we at least recognised the state of Palestine?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks. I share the point that he raises: as I said in an earlier answer, this has gone on for far too long; from both an Israeli and a Palestinian perspective, this needs resolution. I have been to Israel and the Palestinian territories. I have seen for myself the impact the conflict has on both communities. It requires peace negotiations to start again. We are encouraged by recent steps that the US has taken. The position has not changed on recognition of a Palestinian state: we will do so at a time when it serves the peace process in the best way. At the same time, we continue to support and work with the Palestinian Authority. For example, it was invited to, and attended, COP 26 recently.

Afghanistan: Food Shortages

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord speaks from great insight and experience of the region. He is quite right about the situation with ISKP, but he will also be aware that there is fragmentation within the Taliban; there are different parties within the Taliban who are also wrestling for control and, depending on who has the greatest influence, they will have the greatest influence over respective regions. We are working through the nuances of that. There is one thing I will say about the Taliban—it is realising that it may have wanted administration, but being in government is not an easy job.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

I am sure the Minister knows well enough that even prior to the national takeover by the Taliban, large swathes of Afghanistan were in effect controlled by the Taliban, and in those areas, although it is patchy, there was co-operation between the Taliban administration and NGOs, food agencies and the like. Can he tell us whether that is still the case now that there has been a national takeover? If not, what circumstances have changed?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite correct. Indeed, in the initial stages of the takeover by the Taliban of Afghanistan, it was very clear that in those areas that had been under its control—not in all, but in some—there had been operational co-operation with aid agencies: UNICEF, for example. My first meeting very early on, in August, verified that fact and, indeed, UNICEF has increased its footprint, not decreased it, since the Taliban takeover. The other area we are still working through, of course, is that until we have the security in place to ensure that aid can be delivered, we need to work province by province and ensure that, whichever agency has the greatest influence on the ground, we can leverage its operational capacity and support it accordingly.

Official Development Assistance

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I said earlier, we are proud of our commitment to 0.7%; it was a Conservative-led Government who brought that into legislation. I can assure him that we made this decision after very careful consideration. We needed a temporary reduction in order to meet the unprecedented challenges that we face in terms of both health and the economy. I reassure him, however, that our intention is to return to 0.7%.

[Lord Grocott (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that there are few parts of the world where our continued development assistance is needed more desperately than in Afghanistan? Does he further agree that any reduction in our support for that country—given the decades of conflict, the huge numbers of displaced people and our deep involvement there, both militarily and economically—could have devastating effects? Can he assure us that, whatever changes are envisioned in our aid budget, the funding for Afghanistan will remain a top priority?

Middle East Peace Plan

Debate between Lord Grocott and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 30th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Baroness suggested that I added certain lines. Just for clarity I should say that, as she knows from her own experience, that is not how government works. I have stated the Government’s position, which again restated that, as far as we are concerned,

“the best way to achieve peace is through substantive peace talks”.

She is right to raise concerns about annexation. We have always retained and sustained, and I reiterate again, that any annexation of any lands would be against and contrary to international law.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm absolutely clearly that this proposal involves further annexation of Palestinian land? Is there any other part of the world where the Government sanction annexation of neighbouring territories or even countenance it? Further, although he repeats the commitment to a two-state solution, as all Ministers of all parties have, can he confirm that this latest proposal manifestly makes any possibility of a two-state solution almost impossible?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as the noble Lord rightly says, I have stated what the United Kingdom’s position is, as is entirely appropriate. This proposal has been put forward by the United States. Like any peace proposal or peace plan, it is worth consideration. It has been described as a first step. I agree with the noble Lord that, as I have said before and continue to say, any settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians has to be credible, has to be accepted and must involve consideration by both sides. We hope the current proposal on the table means that the Palestinians will also seek to engage on this, but as I have reiterated, from our perspective this is a first step.